Does anyone really make $ on their Boer herd?

[mammawof3]

Was curious how many w/Boer herds actually see a profit. We started 3 years ago w/% Boer does-purebred buck--fed 16% grain(about 2 cups per animal per day) year 'round--little pasture-mixed hay available at all times. First kidding season produced kids from 8#'s--17#'s at birth--does have alot of dairy and most milk well.Kids had access to 18% creep, plus ate w/mom's. They were banded, dehorned, had CD&T and wormed w/valbazen.We seperated at 3.5 monthes, and while seemingly well grown-none were at the market weight of minimum of 50 pounds that our buyer wants. We continued 2x day of the 18%--it took us FOREVER to get them to market weight. Like they quit growing after we weaned them! When we finally marketed them, the feed cost was unprofitable. We changed to what looks like a better buck-alot bigger for age than previous buck-and known lines--this year (his first kids) out of the same does averaged 7 pounds(with yearlings having 6 pounders) We had changed our feed too a 16% containing decoxx-to kid into a cleaner environment. We fed herd 2x day-no creep for kids-moved all to pasture in July(kids 3.5 monthes and still on moms) unfortunatly w/lack of rain this year, pasture went fast-they also had no grain while on pasture. So, after only 7 weeks of pasture we are bringing them back today. Kids will be going into the feeder pen-on mom's for almost 5 monthes.(a few of the does are really thin now ) They look to be about the same growth as last years-3 i know will weigh around 60 or so-but the majority look below market minimum We need to change something. I don't know if a different buck is in order again-or change out most of the does? (they seem to milk WELL) What is the recipie for actually getting kids to be market weight at weaning?? Is it more the DOES--the BLOOD LINES--or the BUCK??? We already figured out that buying creep feed is not profitable--we grow our own mixed hay-and buying alfalfa would not be profitable for us either. I did add alfalfa pellets to the feed when the does first freshened and until they went to pasture. If anyone has figured out a "successful recipe",please share. Am thinking that i need to just sell everything and start over w/different animals--i raised dairy for 12 years and maybe my eye for dairy went into my choice on the does,and they are all too fine boned to produce meaty kids?? Or is it more the norm to take 7-8 monthes to get kids to market weight??

[DQ]

I'm just starting and am quite interested in whatever answers you get. with all the numbers I have put down on paper, the only way to make a profit from my perspective, with a commercial herd is to let them live off the land , period. if you have to supplement feed other than some hay in the harshest conditions and maybe some very well thought out (think cheap) energy supplements in the way of feed pre-breeding and during lactation you just can't make a profit, you are competing with imports that are from virtually feral herds. my own plan goes something like this

2 years

develop some genetic diversity and when possible incorporate animals that are from known "self sufficient" herds while doing some very basic culling for extremely undesirable characteristics (disease, major unthriftyness etc..) I expect to supplement feed for sure.

years 3-4

cull animals that can't raise their own babies, who require assistence kidding (2 strikes) or require frequent worming or medical intervention, foot rot treatment etc. or that are unthrifty on forage alone. keep and breed those that are acceptable or superior. keeping the herd, at around 10 does. continue to add very carfully selected animals from outside herds to replace culls when oppurtunities arise. anything that can't be sold off farm will end up in my own or family and friends freezers.

4-6 years.

by now I hope to have a reasonably self sufficient herd and would like to start culling for body type and weight gain. I would also like to start building my herd to around 20-40 and possible begin to line breed some of my best animals. I will start paying a bit more attention to the price fluctuations in the market and breed to supply those demands. I will hopefully have enough culls and kids soon to make it worthwhile to haul them to an auction and I might be able to break even or acheive a small profit.

6-8 years

have animals that I can make a profit both as meat and by selling a few primo commercial breeding animals.

so you can see,I don't plan on trying to make a profit for at least 4 years. I will do things as cheaply as possible, I am positive that I will lose money the first 2 years and I would be thrilled if I broke even in years 3-4. and my #1 priority right now is to find and breed animals that require virtually no care. ouch its hard. its a good feeling to know that I am taking superior care of my animals but its not going to make me money. I'm sure I'l develop a few favorites that will stay as pets here and there but....

I would like to breed them up to what I want partially because it just interests me. I think you could probably put together a herd and get ahead faster if you very carefully selected your starter herd for the traits you want. I am unable to shell out the lump cash to do this, I will be keeping my eyes out for animals nearby that are likely to be disease free that could suit my purpose and that are inexpensive.

i'm very interested in continued discussion on this, mostly its just dairy talk here.

[Ohiofarmer]

Good plan DQ! You need a 10 year plan with numbers you want to deal with. I totally agree that the BIG factor in profitability is limiting INPUT COSTS. Some goats dont handle the natural inputs of cheap pasture and need the concentrates( ok for 4H/Show animals or replacement purebred does, but for the meat industry you have to go pretty bare bones). No waste. I like a mixed herd of dairy cross does that are cheap compared to purebred stock and much hardier if chosen carefully. The buck is of GREAT importance,( since the mixed herd I use needs strong carcass quality improvement). That means extra heavy and wide-A purebred Boer should do it. With the combination of dairy cross does producing lots of milk for the kids, hybrid vigor in the young, rich pasture, and cheap corn,( i hope that doesnt change...) I can get the 50-70 lb kids at about 5 months. Only hay during winter is added to corn, minerals, water and some squash grown and saved from the garden.

Late term does/lactating does get 1/2 corn per day and all the rich, varied, pasture they can eat. Other than minerals and a goat block and fresh water, shots, worming thats all the costs!

I can get $1 per pound live weight for yearlings as well that are around 100#. Its not alot of money, but I like goats and have lots of pasture. I bet you have some good stock there, but try to cut back on the imput costs and see if you can utilize some more pasture somehow. Confinement meat is a tough business to be profitable. You may have to sell some of the does that dont thrive on cheaper input costs. That should be evident as you change diets slowly. Honestly, without pasture, I dont know how to be profitable...and if you include the purchase price of the pasture, then that probably is not profitable anyway! Culling your does is KEY. I dont like adding animals to my herd very often due to bringing in possible disease that my herd is not used to. The animals look healthy but carry some flora that mine are not used to, and they often fight quite a bit. A new buck is easy to change in my view,( i am not recomending you do this again, since its not the bucks fault the inputs are so expensive), and keep the best does from the best does and get rid of the rest.

So are you trying to have a 50-60# kid at 3 1/2 monthes? Thats not possible for my herd and minimal input costs. What age do you want them to be at butcher weight? 5-6 monthes is totally do-able on pasture and corn.Im doing it now. 7-8 monthes wont change the price too much if you dont use the expensive concentrates. I use mixed hay and alfalfa for the does/kids in winter. Alfalfa, clover, timothy, WEEDS, in pasture.
Good Luck!

OF

[deetu]

Last year, I broke even. Woo Hoo. But I also bought a tatto kit, dehorner and did repairs. This year, I didn't get any kids out of my does so I will have to sell two of my does and the breeder buck to make my farm assessment. Then again, that is why I do it, for farm assessment.

My does get a mix of 18%, BOSS and alfalfa pellets. About a handful each when dry, double that when pregnant and nursing, kids get little more of that in creep feeding. I feed grass hay and they have free range to brouse. Regular worming.

[Sher]

Don't get discouraged..you are asking all the right questions..you will get your operation in tow..it takes some switching and changing..but you will get what works for ya. I can only tell you what we do..and the goats do hold their own here..sometimes paying for their hay and some of the Dexter hay..or part of the taxes..just depend how many kids we get..and the weather.

If I had it all to do over again..I would have bought 50/50 does..not pure dairy girls. I love em to pieces .. but they are not hardy enough to withstand the pressures of meat goating..without extra attention..they need more wormer..they lose weight..they may or maynot have more mastitis/bag problems.

My 50/50 girls do not have the inclination to be wormy. They have a great bag for milking..but I do not have to milk them after weaning. They keep their weight during lactation without a whole lot of help. I just think that overall..the 50/50 girls hold things together better.

We do not grain our girls..until they have kidded. We do not grain kids..they might get a taste when moms are eating..but no kid pen with grain in it. We also do not worm/vaccinate kids UNLESS they absolutely need it. That cuts down on our input costs a pile.

If your moms are from a line that seem to not be bothered by worms and are "easy keepers" .. your kids should be picking that up too. We try to wean/sell by 3 1/2 months old. The bucks are running about 60 lb. and the does will average about 50-55 lbs. This has run true for about ten years.

In ten years time..we have owned two bucks that were registered. They were both barn burners when it came to putting weight on their kids. Country Haven has Micky now. And I do not know where you live..but I can vouch for his offspring..he throws..in my mind..better than he is. Especially on his buck kids. I am using two of his sons now. One for the big herd and one for a couple of does that are separated. One is going to the sale barn this week..but the other..even though he is not registered..is our herd buck. The reason? He is huge in all the same places Mick was..he's bigger at this age than Mick was. IF he throws fast gaining kids like Mick..I will continue to use him no matter that he is not registered..my customers don't care..lol. If a buck doesn't throw a good first crop..I won't use him for a second..because in my mind..I do not see how giving him a second year will change anything.

For us..the profit or lack thereof..rides on the buck. So if you are doubting your buck..I would say switch him out..look at the butt and chest..are ya saying to yourself..geez..he's a heavy buck! Or geez..that chest just goes on forever?

We do not show..I could care less about how the buck, does or kids "look" in the show ring..its strictly..how excited is the meat buyer when the kids come in past him.

Our goats are fed hay..once a day in a year like this..which has been VERY unusual..we have had pasture all year long..and its lush. They get their hay in the morning.. so they have something to eat while the dew/worms are high on the grass/weeds. Then they go browze.

When the pasture starts to go..they will get hay twice a day. When the girls kid..we will grain them morning and night along with their hay/browse. This works for us..thats all I can say.

But ya gotta have a buck that throws meat..and ya gotta get a herd that is not easily overtaken with worms/disease..and keep the shots/wormers down to a minimum. We more or less go by specific animals..they get treated..not the whole herd. And the more space you can give your animals the better. I would rather raise fewer head..and be able to give them alot of room..cause the disease/worming worries are really cut down.

I know you can make it..you could gradually start keeping an outstanding doe back every kidding..to replace a doe you do not think is helping you out. That way you still have production going..no gaps kidding..and can get your herd replaced..it all takes time.

Hope this helped some..don't give up! In dry years..and what not..livestock is definitely a challenge. I wish you the best.

[goatkid]

It's best to start with the highest % does you can buy and a good buck. I haven't made a profit on Boers, but that's not for lack of size on the kids. I raise mostly dairy goats and feed mainly alfalfa hay and grain. I don't have enough pasture to feed mainly browse. Nadia Star (7/8 Boer) kidded the end of March with triplets. I've already traded one buckling for some hay. I haven't weighed the kids, but I'd say the doeling is already at least 50 lb and the buckling is pushing 75#. I just sold 5 dairy wethers last week that were 4-5 months old and averaged 65# each. Around here, they do best at at least 50#, but when they go over 80# the price per pound drops.

[crowinghen]

What an awesome thread! You have received great advice, and I don't think I have anything to add except to confirm things that I've found true in my herd too--

1) Cull does that require extra care and attention or are not easy--keepers that will help keep your...
2) Costs down, because there won't be does that need extra pampering/care other than the basics
Keep only doe kids from the hardy does as they will be healthier and better foragers than those from not so hardy does. Temperament too is highly inherited.
Best buck you can do-- although my buck last year didn't look really impressive, he threw some great kids , ( RIP Gruffy ) this year we're using a purebred SA Boer, we have purebred dairy girls.
The only doe kid we're keeping is 3 months old and 50 pounds, we feed free choice pasture and grass hay, alfalfa once a day, loose minerals, no grain. We took her whethered brother to the sales barn last week-end and got $145 for him.
We've culled one doe that just couldn't keep the weight on and got a persistent skin infection. The keepers are good milkers, 6 quarts a day is our best, but a little less is ok too, I think 50 percent dairy will be good for milkiness without udder problems. I don't want to go out and spend alot of money for percentage does that I don't know really how hardy they are, so I'm breeding my own.
We aren't interested in showing reg dairy, can't sell milk in our state, and don't really want the commitment of a dairy, so for us this is what's working the best.
We are lucky that we have a strong market for meat goats, but also our animals look really healthy compared to other animals and I feel that is reflected in the price. Two other whethers brought 160 a piece earlier in the Summer, also approx 50 pounds each.

gotta go just wanted to chime in--
Good luck!

Susie

[texican]

I'm relatively new to goats.

My cousin runs 250 to 300 boers on the 350 acres next to me, and she uses them mainly as brush control. She sells her wethers... the most she can get locally is 70$ each. She feeds them enough for them to want to come back to the sheds each evening, and hay in the winter months, with grain supplement in bad weather.

To her, goats are like cattle, in you aren't really growing cows or goats... your growing grass. You grow lots of grass, you grow lots of cattle. You have lots of brush and forage, you grow lots of goats. You can't feed cattle year round and mak money. You can't feed goats (meat goats) year round and make money. If a person adds his/her time to the equation, you're just trading money ... Now if you raise show goats for 4-H'ers or other specialty breeders, there's money to be made. I know people that have no problem spending 500$ on a week old doeling, if it has "papers"... That's where the money's at.

My SO keeps wanting to get into Boer's.... a hobby herd, that's producing milk and income is one thing, but a boer goat, that you put time and money into, and then sell it for a max of 70$...hmmmm... the potential profits are slim, even if you do nothing for the animal... and it's very hard to watch an animal suffer (but putting 50$ worth of medicine into a meat goat with an end value of 70$ doesn't make sense).

To someone that is making money with their boer meat goats... what is the profit, above input costs. What are you paying yourself in labor? Labor is always the trickiest part of any profit loss equation. I remember my uncle making 5c/hour on his hogs~10 years ago, when the price of pork was low... back then, his cattle saved his farm.

[mammawof3]

Thanks for all the responces. We got them home now-most of the does are a bit thin, but not too bad-and still nursing those kids. More kids are NOT at market minium than are. I figured out which does can raise their kids w/out grain! I am thinking now-it is the buck--he just isn't putting the meat there. The kids look healthy ect.-just not "big and meaty"-It is good to know that people really are getting market size kids at weaning-you loose out having to "grow" them 7 monthes for market weight. I will be happy w/5 month, as does can handle that. Granted this years figures will be better,as very little grain was fed-i just wish the pasture had held out another month. I am getting an idea as to where to go from here as far as the herd goes. My very best kid out there is from a Nubian/Alpine cross doe! The youngest kid there--and the biggest! The next biggest is a doe kid out of my old Saanen-she is a keeper.

[marcir]

I wonder if it would help grow the kids faster if your dairy portion of the percentage were long, tall Alpine does? Would a rangy bone structure on a milking mother make a better combination with your wide, heavy Boer buck?
Marci in Nor California

[Jim S.]

I agree with what texican said ONE THOUSAND percent. It is the key to making money on farming animals. I have made money on goats and on cows in a cow-calf operation, but the only way to do so is to make them live and thrive on what the sun provides for free on your own farm as much as is humanly possible.

I can't afford to throw money away on many things I have seen others do "farming" goats. Every penny gets watched. My total feed bill last year for my goats was $58, for example. This year, due to drought, it will be $350. I will not make money this year, as a result. That is how close it gets on costs.

As Texican said, the profits are slim (as they were when I was in cattle, too) and so to make money, you MUST control your costs. Across all of agriculture, a 5% return on investment is considered top-notch. That is very low.

That's why you won't find a pedigreed goat on my place (too high priced); that's why my goats eat grass and browse ONLY unless it is winter; that's why they are limit-fed only as much bulk whole cottonseed as they can eat in 10 minutes in winter, once a day (cottonseed being the cheapest feed here in terms of % of protein per dollar); that's why they eat off the pasture in winter before they eat hay; that's why my tractor is a 1963 Massey Ferguson; that's why my cattle trailer is a rusty but workable unit I bought for $350; that's why there is no fancy goat equipment on my place. And etc. Squeeze that penny til it screams, and make maximum use out of what the sun gives you for free, and you can make money. You will not get rich, but you will make money.

On the other hand, feed them free-choice boughten alfalfa and grain and black oil sunflower seed at $16 a bag twice a day, and you are underwater before you even start.

One vet visit to the farm can wipe out all your profit for a year, so do your own vet stuff. The vet is an enemy of profits, although a necessary evil sometimes. I have never had a vet on the place for the goats, and just once for the cows, when one cast her uterus. I have taken just 2 goats to the vet office in 17 years.

In meat goats, it is all about controlling costs and still supplying what they need to thrive.

To answer your specific question, Texican, if most livestock farmers count their labor and land costs, they are not making a profit. If I count the land costs plus the tax benefits, and my system provides thriving goats with minimum working of the goats, I make money. I have done that, and people have gotten irritated with me when I write about how I do it. But I also get irritated at the breeders/show folks (which you say are where the money is at) because they do little or nothing to provide a goat that actually will thrive in farming conditions. And again, that's why I will buy unregistered goats from a true farming operation before I ever plunk down my hard-earned cash on "babied" goats from a show herd.

To me, the ideal meat herd gets wormed twice a year, and gets worked just twice or three times a year, depending on system. The does kid in the pasture and take care of all those kids need. The bucks run with the herd unless being held out for kid-timing purposes. Kids arrive in bunches. Most does kid twice a year. The herd surivives on the land more than on what I need to buy or bale for it. Most of the herd's time is spent outdoors, browsing, not in a barn or shed.

They will not win fancy blue ribbons, but those goats will make you money in a meat operation.

[Jim S.]

Oh yeah, let me add that the best thing any meat goat farmer can do in getting started is to subscribe to "Goat Rancher" and read it cover to cover. The goats in the breed ads give you conformational targets, and most articles are about how to ranch or farm meat goats on a cost basis, NOT how to baby them. It's a good tabloid, and getting better by the issue.

[homesweethome]

Here in southern Illinois, there are lots people who have started boer herds and are making a decent profit. I heard a long time farmer say he's making more than he ever did with hogs, even before the bottom dropped. And I agree with Jim, in that you can't throw money at a production animal and then expect to get it all back. But a show goat operation is like apples to oranges, you throw money at them, cause you are selling kids for $500 to $1,500, ya got a bit of a higher profit margin! In show animals it takes money to make money!
Look at the members list on these websites.
http://www.imgp.us/
http://www.midwestgoatproducers.org/
Try this for an idea of profitability:
http://www.sheepandgoat.com/Spreadsh...budget2004.xls
I used it and found it very helpful!

[mary,tx]

mamma, I see that your best grown kids are off your dairy-cross does, and I'm thinking there's a reason for that.

I'm toying with the idea of starting a few meat animals, and wondering if I could start with my own dairy girls and one of the little boer bucks I brought home from auction last spring.

mary

[ozark_jewels]

With just 7 Boer does......I don't expect to make much of a profit. That usually comes with higher numbers unless you are selling show stock, which I'm not.
But I do expect my small Boer herd to at least pay for themselves and a little extra.
I do not feed grain of any form except to my momma does during the first three months of lactation. Then its not very much and just grains(barley and corn), no special mixes. The does get alfalfa in some form during the last month of their pregnancies and the first two-three months of lactation.
The kids are not creep fed or fed at all except what they can steal from the does at feeding time. I feed the does and expect *them* to feed the kids.
They are on free-choice grass hay in the winter and free-choice browse in the green months. Of course free-choice minerals. CDT and Bose for the does twice a year.
The does do get a bit thin when feeding kids, but thats ok, they get it all back at weaning time or when the kids start eating more browse than milk. They feed out twins or triplets well.
The kids usually weigh in at about 55-60 lbs at 4 months of age. Some much over, some a bit under, but thats the average. Thats triplets too. Three of my small herd had and raised triplets this year with no problems at all getting them to good size on just milk.
And yes, the biggest fastest growing kids are from my Dairy/Boer cross does. More milk=fast growing kids.
The buck is the one who really makes a difference in kids. Another thing on size is kidding out in the cool/cold months. As long as you have a decent barn, kids born in the cold months grow much better than kids born in the hot, humid months. People up north don't have to worry about this as much, but here further south when it can easily hit 90* in May....the cool months are the best. I like January/February kids the best. They get a lot of growing done in those cool/cold months before the heat, humidity, cocci and worms hit.

[tioga12]

We bought a little 10# boer buck kid (high percentage) and let him nurse off one of our heavy milking alpines twice a day at milking time. At 4 months he weighed 84 lbs. Other than milk he just got a little of her grain when we fed her, and grass/brush on our property.
Now that he is weaned the weight gain leveled off, but he gained very steadily on all that milk.
Our other buck kids(both dairy) really slowed down after I had to take them away from the does (kind of late, but at 12 weeks), as opposed to the doe kids and wethers who are all still on their moms a bit and weigh in at 75-85 lbs. at 4.5 months. The bucks are about 5 pounds behind their sisters who got to stay with mom. Milk does make a difference.

[Jan in CO]

There is a reason the dairy and dairy cross does produce bigger babies as far as our experiences have gone. The milk they produce is higher in fat than what the Boer does produce, and the kids just grow faster. Our granddaughter raised a little Boer whether last year for fair, and a friend's son raised the twin brother of her little goat. The other one got milk from the friend's dairy herd, and more grain from the begining. Ashley's goat was fostered onto a Boer doe that had one kid. He was more than 20 pounds lighter at weigh in than the friend's son's goat. They were identical in size when they were purchased.

Mary, you could certainly breed your dairy girls to one of the little Boer bucks. That's what I'm using on all my girls this year, the Boer buck. I'm waiting on the little Nubian girls, to give them some more growth before I breed them, but everyone else is 'in the works' now.

I even sold milk to a 4H member who raised her Boer, not aiming for Champion, but for the carcass contest. She always does well there, and keeps the kids on milk right up until the fair, so a good 6 or 7 months. That's longer than we would for goats we're raising to keep, but it obviously does them good.

Jan in CO

[deetu]

Just a little word of warning. A friend got a really nice, square, big chested buck to breed to her percentage does to get better quality kids. Every doe had trouble kidding that year. The kids were just too big to pass.

[Sher]

I think before I blamed the buck..I would re-evaluate the feeding program of the does. If grain is involved..I would be wondering if that is what caused the babies to be too big.

I can understand one or two does maybe having problems due to the buck. But the majority of does having problems..I would look at the feeding program first.

JMO though.

[RosewoodfarmVA]

We have had better luck with non-purebred goats. Purebred or high % Boer just don't survive as well. Less worm tolerance, cold weather hardiness, etc. The key to profitability is to reduce input costs. This means hardy goats, without need for frequent worming or hoof trimming. Also, you have to have plenty of grazing. You will never make money if you buy all your feed! Feed hay only when there is nothing else to eat. Make sure you have enough grazing or woodland browse for all but deep winter feeding. With a meat goat herd they don't need ANY grain. If you have to feed grain, get rid of that batch of goats and get others! A good nanny will carry two without any grain, just what she gets from pasture and browse (lots of it available, of course). Ideally you should only have to feed hay during winter, no hay any other time and no grain period.

When you buy your goats, look at the environment they grew up in. If they could thrive in a weedpatch, with little worming and hoof trimming, they have good genetics. I would say that the ability to thrive without intensive management/feeding is more important than the extra "meatiness" from the Boer lines, because that extra growth requires extra feeding ( $$ ). High % Boers just can't thrive without intensive management. And if a goat can't raise twins on pasture without your birthing help, grain feeding, etc, get rid of her! Low costs = money in the bank!