Dehorn or not?

Teri · #1 07/08/07, 02:34 PM

I am absolutely new at goats, so please forgive me if any of this sounds stupid.
A friend has offered to give us a pair of nanny kid goats, Alpine mix, I think. They are about 3 1/2 weeks and are still on her homestead til they are weaned. She has waited too long to dehorn them. Should I still take them? How much trouble is it having goats with horns? I have small children and we have one goat, a Toggenburg who is a sweetheart (and is dehorned). Could I put her in a pen with the goats who have horns?
If I don't take these goats, my friend will sell them at auction. I would really like to have at least one more goat, but I don't want to make a mistake and I don't know where to locate another one. Help, anyone?
Teri

midkiffsjoy · #2 07/08/07, 02:57 PM

I dehorn goats I get from auction with horn saws. I dont care what anyone else says.....goats with horns are trouble!!! They get caught in fences. They use their horns to win arguements. My mother's fav nubian doe has a HOLE in her (the vet wanted to put her down and we've been doing antibiotics for a month) because a doe I hadnt gotten around to dehorning decided SHE was boss goat and gored her. So NO HORNS allowed here!!!!

topside1 · #3 07/08/07, 03:42 PM

No room for horns here at my homestead. I have four left with horns, after the 2008 kidding season is over these horned Boer girls are out of here. Great does, great dams, will be sorry to see them go. Hate to sound so openly negative. In fact I have had no injuries or any major problems with horns to date. However it's just a matter of time, could be my eye, a calf's eye, another goat, who knows. I feel horns are just another un-necessary gamble I don't need to take. I'm currently shifting towards more dairy stock and a gorged milk filled udder can't be a pretty site...My thoughts.

GoatLove · #4 07/08/07, 03:52 PM

Yep, I second no horns. If you have small children, please get your goats dehorned. Good luck and have fun with your new goaties

Teri · #5 07/08/07, 04:50 PM

Thanks, folks!
I think I'll pass on these goats and keep looking. I don't want the trouble of goats with horns and sure don't want to saw them off myself. Our county fair is this week. I think I'll ask around there.
God Bless, Teri

thaiblue12 · #6 07/08/07, 06:05 PM

Well you have only heard from the de-horn people. Many on here will say they like to keep them natural. I got goats with horns since I could find no others at the time. I had no clue where to look except in the paper. My 3 girls have never been stuck in a fence and have had only one horn issue. She has a crack in it. I have a dis-budded wether and he can hold his own against the girls and their horns. I plan on selling all the girls after they have kidded since they are no as handleable as I would like. They have never ever used their horns on me or my kids. They know who is in charge.
I was going to band their horns using the info on here if they were going to stay: http://www.greatgoats.com/management.html
So if you want them get them and band them.

ozark_jewels · #7 07/08/07, 06:07 PM

If it were me, I would trim those 3-1/2 week old horns with clippers then burn and disbudd. I've done it plenty of times and it works fine. But I don't reccomend this for beginners.
No place for horns here either.

topside1 · #8 07/08/07, 06:31 PM

My goats sure know who is in charge; the problem is with accidental injuries. Pouring grain, giving them a hug, kidding, just handling in general can offer up injuries. Like I said no injuries on my campus, just don't need to invite any either. I agree with Ozark Jewels, it may not be too late. However lots of new kids will be available in the near future....I'd wait, you'll have a larger selection....

prairiecomforts · #9 07/08/07, 07:18 PM

I agree with Emily. I think that if you trim and little and then burn - you really shouldn't have any problems getting them off.Maybe I shouldn't admit it, but I had a couple of kids this year that got a little older than I wanted before dibudding - so I had to trim a little off with a small tin snips and then burn. I was nerve wracking - but it had to be done. No horns here!

chamoisee · #10 07/08/07, 07:49 PM

They are young enough right now that you can still disbud them. Take a clean, scrubbed, bleached pair of hoof nippers, get the dehornign iron really hot, nip the h orn down far enough that the iron will cover what's left, and burn until the blood stops and the rest of the horn cap flips off in a ring when you try to flick it off. Then burn again until there's the copper ring.

And no, I wouldn't let them keep the horns. All it takes is one accident, one child's eye taken out, one gouge in your flesh or another goat's udder, to cause significant damage.

CountryDreams · #11 07/08/07, 07:55 PM

All but one of my goats has horns. The one that doesn't isn't naturally polled. The one without horns will hold her own against the ones with horns just fine.
I've never had a goat use their horns on me, except once and that was when I was trying to keep a barking dog away from the goat and the goat accidentally got me in the knee with her horn.(She was a pygmy doe.)
I actually prefer my goats to have horns. I've seen too many disbudding screw ups to take a chance on doing that to any of my goats. I've never had a fence problem with the horned goats but that's because I run electric fence.
So, I guess here's one vote for keeping them natural.

**mygoat** · #12 07/08/07, 10:38 PM

I have both horned and disbudded goats. Honestly, I wouldn't pass up a goat just because it has horns, especially if you're just going to use them on the homestead. In 6 years I have NEVER had a injury from the horns that I remember. Sure, they've pinched and poked my hand with them, or poked my leg, but I've also broken my finger on one's forehead (she's dehorned, too) and also have broken toes/metatarsals from them stepping on me.

I've also been butted into a wall by a disbudded goat... I believe it's all about training the people and the goats. Don't get your face close enough to a horned goat to get poked in the eye. don't allow any goat to butt you or your children, and you'll be fine. I suppose disbudded goats are a bit safer, but I honestly haven't noticed a difference. I now disbud all my goat kids, however, because that's what the market demands.

KimM · #13 07/09/07, 11:41 AM

My vet won't disbud kids until they're at least 3 weeks old. I took 4 kids in at just under 4 weeks old and had them done. 2 have small scurs and I want to talk him in to doing them a little sooner, but it can still be done now.
All mine, except the wethers, have horns but if you have small children, I vote for getting them dehorned.

Emily, do you just keep nipping the tip off until they're short enough to burn? How old was the oldest one you've done?

ozark_jewels · #14 07/09/07, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KimM

Emily, do you just keep nipping the tip off until they're short enough to burn? How old was the oldest one you've done?

Just one clip next to their head takes the whole thing off. It will bleed profusely, so have the iron *hot* and waiting to cauterize. Burn just like a regular disbudding.
The oldest ones I have ever done were Saanen bucklings at a month old. Way to old, but it did work and they only had slight scurs.

fellini123 · #15 07/09/07, 04:11 PM

Well we have pygmies so not sure if this is relevant, but all of ours have horns. They make great handles!! LOL Never had a problem with the horns and we have had goats for about 8 years.
Alice in Virginia

Jim S. · #16 07/09/07, 04:26 PM

After you have seen a doe defend the kids against a bobcat with her horns, saving them all by facing it and driving the cat off, you will know as I do that God put those horns there for a reason!

I would never, ever, allow my goats to go out into the pasture, out of my sight, defenseless. Never. If God decides one ought not have horns, that's fine, cuz there are the majority with them to protect the few that are polled.

Please take your hot disbudding iron and press it to your toenail on your big toe and count off the seconds to when the horn would be burned on your kid.

What? You say you won't do that? Hmmm...why not? Same thing, isn't it? LOL. I'm kinda teasing there, but then again, maybe not...

If your goats have behavioral problems that make horns difficult, you need to cull the bad behavior goats, as temperament is highly heritable. I just talked with someone who hard-culled all the bad goats out last year. He is really happy with his well-behaved herd now.

ozark_jewels · #17 07/09/07, 05:53 PM

Dehorning or not is a totally personal decision. Neither decision is the *wrong* one. Don't be pressured either way. Check into the choices and make your own decisions.
Disbudding is no worse than castrating and everyone has to do that sooner or later.
Sending a goat out to pasture out of sight without an LGD is sending them out helpless, whether they have horns or not. A goat with horns will not be able to fight off a pack of dogs, coyotes, a bear or mountain lion. Any smaller predators than that?? Yeah, probably. But they aren't the real threats anyway.
Me? I'll never have goats *with* horns.....and I'll never be *without* my LGDs. Personal choice only.

topside1 · #18 07/09/07, 06:35 PM

Jim, not here to argue with you. ...Just stating my opinion and disbudding preference. Disbudding takes about ten seconds and the kids’ scream more before the burn begins....I would compare the experience to castration, quick easy, but not a barrel of fun. The only goats I'm going to disbud are my keepers; boys heading to the sale barn or freezer stay intact due to the size of their horns. Disbudding at my homestead guarantees safety to my goat herd and bottle calves that I raise. As a side note I also raise butcher steers, those boys are also disbudded for obvious reasons. Even without horns these (1000 pound plus) steers don't mean to accidentally injury you but still can....I see little difference, injuries do happen and I'm just trying to lower the percentages.

DixyDoodle · #19 07/10/07, 05:53 AM

I happen to think horns look wonderful on goats, but due to safety issues, will never purposely buy another horned goat.

Quote:

Well we have pygmies so not sure if this is relevant, but all of ours have horns. They make great handles!! LOL Never had a problem with the horns and we have had goats for about 8 years.

I've had goats for only 4 months and already had to take one goat to the vet's for a possible horn-related injury. A ruptured salivary gland that cost me $150 in vet bills. And I occasionally get rubbed against by a horned goat, not aggressively, just accidental, but when they catch you, it's not nice.....and I mostly just have minis!

My goats will argue over whose feed is whose. You could make a trough 100 feet long and still, there is always going to be a goat that wants "that" part of the trough and will bump the others away. Fortunately, not a big deal it they are hornless.

Add to that, that I have children and I don't want them to lose an eye. Sometimes goats are hard to predict as to when they will sharply and suddenly raise their heads, hopefully no one's face is close by when it happens. I keep my children away from the buck; he's sweet-natured, but also a klutz.

And horns or not, a 200lb puma coming for him (who's a mere 50lbs) would consider him fairly easy prey as he is domesticated and not likely to have as much "street smarts" as a wild goat would.

Quote:

If your goats have behavioral problems that make horns difficult, you need to cull the bad behavior goats, as temperament is highly heritable.

What about when your goats are establishing dominance? My one buck is the king, and he makes sure he keeps others from getting too close to his portion of the feed pan. He also butts others to get a point across (pardon the pun!) or for some other unknown offence. His is not due to temperment issues, it's just that he's being a goat, and a buck at that.

This buck is the greatest guy and if not for the horns, he'd be perfect (although I still admire his horns for appearance sake). I will keep him for breeding as I like his other attributes, but his offspring will be dehorned.

Quote:

Please take your hot disbudding iron and press it to your toenail on your big toe and count off the seconds to when the horn would be burned on your kid. What? You say you won't do that? Hmmm...why not? Same thing, isn't it?

I don't think anyone has ever had to go to the hospital with a debilitating toenail injury, though, either. LOL

In that respect, perhaps we should not castrate or even eat goats. And how do you know that milking them is not traumatic? Perhaps they would prefer to be left wild on the mountaintop where they can be ran to exhaustion and torn apart by pumas and eaten up while still partly alive?

Just for the record, people DO "mutilate" each other also (including their own children) in ways that some consider "justifiable": circumcisions, ear piercings, etc. I wonder how many of the people that do that stuff are against dehorning.

Dehorning is not done out of meanness or even convenience (as horns DO make good handles), it's done for the safety of others. My only other issue is that some people complain about how farmers are "so cruel" and yet they will still sit down at a table and order steak. They don't raise food themselves and are quick to condemn others, but perhaps if they had to, they would understand that sometimes there are some "necessary evils".