Why do you pull your babys?

HaysFarm · #1 07/05/07, 03:32 PM

Ok i keep hearing most people that pull the kids off there mom.
Why do you do this? And do you have to do this?
What are the pros and cons of pulling them?
thank you all.
Marvel

Bearfootfarm · #2 07/05/07, 03:50 PM

I think most who do it are milking. And its sometimes done to stop the spread of milk born diseases. For pets or meat goats its not necessary

**mygoat** · #3 07/05/07, 03:57 PM

I pull most kids off of my mini does, and all kids off of my dairy does. The production of most dairy does with kids left on them isn't satisfactory, plus with dairy does, kids can ruin udders. The kids make MUCH better companions and are so much easier to work with when the reach adulthood. You don't have to 'work' taming them, they automatically love you. It's not that much extra work, IMO, and I love doing it. I leave one kid on my mini does because I don't milk them, plus I don't want them loosing their mother instinct in case I ever sell them. I leave a buckling on them and take the rest.

HaysFarm · #4 07/05/07, 05:16 PM

Why would there Production go down if there being milked and have kids on them?
Trying to get our ducks in a row, Before we do any breeding, and have any babys.
Most people seem to pull there kids. So i was just wanting to double check on why that is.

Oldntimes · #5 07/05/07, 05:44 PM

When they have kids on them the kids will eat 24/7 therefoe leaving you very little milk for you. So Folks that need the milk will pulll the kids and bottle raise them so the kids are only drinking what is needed rather then when ever they want, and then the Dams have plenty of milk for milking.
I have mini's so my Kids are dam raised. I only milk my Does after the kids are weaned.

nehimama · #6 07/05/07, 05:55 PM

In my case, I had a lovely Nubian doe freshen with quads. I worried that she wouldn't be able to feed them all, but she seemed to be doing the job well. Then I noticed she stopped letting them nurse. Got her up on the milkstand to check her out, and her udder was a MESS. All bloody and scabby.

With only two teats, and four kids, the two that got ahold of a teat would hang on for dear life - with teeth. The two that didn't get a teat were hollering and butting. Poor mama!

I had to pull all four 'til she healed up. Then put the two bucklings on her and bottle fed the two doelings. Once the bucklings were weaned, I went to milking her full time.

Other does, I put the kids in a separate pen at night, and let them loose after morning milking. I get plenty of milk, and they nurse all day, then get put up at night again. This system works very well for a lot of people.

Hope this helps some.

NeHi

goatsareus · #7 07/06/07, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nehimama

Other does, I put the kids in a separate pen at night, and let them loose after morning milking. I get plenty of milk, and they nurse all day, then get put up at night again. This system works very well for a lot of people.

Hope this helps some.

NeHi

This is the system I use.

First off, if you get 1000 goat raisers together, you will hear 1000 different ways to raise goats.

I am not familiar with the phrase "pull the kids off there mom", but I am guessing that this means separating the kids from the mom's permanently. I do not do this, for many reasons.

You often read that "this ruins the udder". IMO, this is poppycock. Ruins the udder for what? I have helped a friend for 5 years with her ADGA on site appraisal and she raises her kids on her purebred, registered, state shown goats, and this does not harm her goats' udders in any way. I think this is a statement that is mindlessly repeated by people who have no direct experience with this. She has specifically asked the appraisers about this and for the most part, it is not true that raising kids on their dams "ruins" the udders.

I milk two goats and bring to the house 6 to 7 pounds of milk every day that I milk. I don't milk everday. That is just one advantage of having the kids nurse their moms. They take care of the job if it is inconvienent for me to be at the barn when they expect me in the mornings.

I get tremendous growth on my dam raised kids. My kids are not wild. They are handled everyday by me, a most tedious chore

While it is true that every baby goat born is wild, daily handeling makes the most loving kids imagineable. I am mugged by ALL my kids every time I enter the pen, wanting their lovings.

You just need to assess your goals, and decide for yourself how you want to manage your herd.

tioga12 · #8 07/06/07, 06:04 AM

I don't think it's right to take the kids so you can get more milk...they need that.
Once they are older you could seperate them for a time, but I don't believe it's in the best interest of the kids to bottle raise them.
Many people do it to prevent CAE transmission. If I had a dairy doe with CAE kid, I would definitely bottle raise that kid.

Liese · #9 07/06/07, 07:37 AM

Here's my vote for leaving kids on. This was my first year kidding so I am not a font of experience but I can say my ND kids are extremely friendly, they'll go up to strangers too. I also milk at a dairy with Oberhaslis, this year there are 24 girls in the line up. The kids are taken after 3 days and raised on teat buckets. The does have lopsided udders, lumpy udders, good udders, etc. I have to conclude that it is genetics, nutritional management and/or CAE status ( a topic that is not spoken of there).

HaysFarm · #10 07/06/07, 12:57 PM

OK I didn't want to start a fight about this. Sorry about that.
I know people who pull theres, and I know people who leave theres on.
I was just wanting to know what the reason behind it are.
I can understand booth sides, We are frist timers, trying to get a plan set up before anybody has kids or anyone does anything.
I guess alot of it depends on the doe, how much milk you want, how much time you have ext.

homebirtha · #11 07/06/07, 01:14 PM

I think the biggest, most tangible reason is CAE prevention, and because it's "how it's done" in the dairy world. If you want to sell your kids, you'll have a better chance at selling them if they're raised on CAE prevention. There are buyers who won't care, but there are lots of buyers who wouldn't ever buy a goat not raised on prevention. So it really depends on how important that is to you. If you're just raising kids for meat, it's not really important. If you have buyers who don't care, it's not important. If you test, and your does test negative, that may be good enough for most buyers in your area. You'll just have to figure that out as you go.

We've done it both ways. We test and have tested negative for long enough now that I'm comfortable letting my does dam-raise their own kids. But I still probably wouldn't buy a kid that wasn't raised on prevention. Hypocritical, I know. But there you have it.

Bottle-raised kids are easier to handle, in general. Dam-raised kids take a little work, but they can be very friendly too. It just takes more work and it helps if their dams are friendly, IME.

**mygoat** · #12 07/06/07, 08:21 PM

I pull all of my dairy kids and most of my mini kids. They make much friendlier kids and it's virtually no extra effort to tame them. I raise all of the bottle babies on CAE prevention. I do leave a single buckling on each mini doe most of the time because thier udders aren't as vital as they are to dairy goats, I want them to retain thier mothering instincts, and because the buckling I leave on there is usually going to be either a breeding buck or a meat kid, so there's no point in specifically trying to tame it.

Yes, babies do ruin udders. I have a doe right now that has a perminently damaged udder. She has a blowout on one side. The doe had a single buckling that only nursed one side in 2006. I didn't own her then, and the previous owner didn't realize that you're supposed to milk out the side the kid won't nurse. She still milks fine, but she won't ever be able to be shown. I suppose with extra work you could attempt keeping the udder even and still possibly get a doe with a 'showable' udder. The man judging the goats at fair this year told us to take all kids of the dairy does, because he's seen some horrible udders because of kids. I believe him.

Also, I pull kids because they do lower the milk production. You can sell bottle kids much, much earlier than dam raised kids, which I rather like as well.

goatsareus · #13 07/07/07, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

Yes, babies do ruin udders. I have a doe right now that has a perminently damaged udder. She has a blowout on one side. The doe had a single buckling that only nursed one side in 2006. I didn't own her then, and the previous owner didn't realize that you're supposed to milk out the side the kid won't nurse.

Goat owners are responsible for the proper care of their livestock. Sometimes when I have had a single kid born to a dam, I have had to train the kid to nurse on both sides. This is something a kid may not naturally do.

goatsareus · #14 07/07/07, 10:49 AM

mygoat, I see that you are 17 y.o. and I want to make sure you and others understand my point here. BTW, nice web site and I too have as my #1 concern, animal welfare. That is the reason for my continuing posts on this subject.

It is not the responsibilty of a baby goat to monitor the health of it's mom's udder. If a goat has a lopsided udder, it is not the fault of a baby goat. It is up to the human care taker to monitor the health of the goats' udders. I am concerned that goat owners are not taking responsibilty for the care of their goats. To say that raising kids on their dams, ruins the udders, is placing the responsibility of the udder health with the baby goat, because it only nursed on one side. When we see a lopsided udder, we should not think that the baby ruined the udder, we should think that the caretaker was not doing their job. The caretaker must see that both sides of the udder has the milk withdrawn, it is not an option, it is necessary.

Agree? Disagree? Comments? Questions?

DocM · #15 07/07/07, 11:11 AM

I only pull kids if there's a reason to - the dam rejects the kids outright, she hasn't enough milk for the number of kids, or if there's a question of her CAE status or CL status, in which case she's probably destined for cull anyway, since all my does are tested prior to kidding season.

Automatically pulling kids is just a money making scheme by breeders who believe they make more money by using the term "CAE prevention" - they're making more money in their heads alone, as I sell my kids and milkers for the same price they do. And get the $$$. The reason they believe this is because they've marketed this term and have a bunch of newbie buyers believing it's magic. A CAE negative doe doesn't pass on CAE to her kids by nursing. It's not rocket science. The number of CAE negative does that suddenly, spontaneously become Positive only exist on message boards frequented by breeders who believe in the religion of CAE prevention.

I let my show dams nurse their kids. I've yet to have a "ruined" udder. That's simply a myth. I've had an equal number of ugly udders from goats that never nursed a kid. Zero. A "ruined udder" in any goat is simply poor management. If the goat is producing more milk than the kids can consume, she should be on a regular milking schedule. Most does do require milking, regardless of the number of kids they have, because kids just naturally prefer one side over the other.

I've pulled kids that are destined for sale prior to weaning, because it's cruel to both the dam and the kid to let it nurse for a time then force it onto a bottle. Better to cut that tie from the beginning.

Sometimes it's a management issue and it's easier for the owner/breeder to pull the kids and bulk bottle feed - especially in dairy operations. You can control the intake/output and that's important to the bottom line if you're depending on milk sales to fund the ownership of the goats. However, there are ways to break even and let the dams nurse. I definitely make a profit on my goats each year, and I pull but about a third of my kids. As long as you're bottle feeding even one kid though, it's about the same amount of work to bottle feed ALL of them, provided they're close in age.

I didn't pull any kids this year. I'm betting I take home lots of best udder awards too. I already sold all the goats I'm going to sell for the year (12), and made a tidy profit on every single one of them. However, I'm not against pulling kids when necessary, and there's lots of necessaries - I just don't do it as a rule.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #16 07/07/07, 11:22 AM

Whats the goal at your farm? Housing, land, feeding, labor...it's pretty expensive to raise goats anymore like a hobby.

If it's house milk, a few sales here and there than raise your goats the way you want. But to make money with your dairy stock, and even in boers I had a nice little niche selling tame kids, you really have to go with the status quo and bottle kids on CAE prevention.

I know lots of folks who dam raise and then show...they are forever trying to even up udders in the show ring, it's more work than the 12 weeks of raising kids on bottles. Riasing kids on CAE prevention with heat treating colostrum and pasteurising milk is simply eaiser than taming down kids, sure they are tame for the owner, but for the person buying them? No.
It also means I can sell kids the day they are born or 4 weeks later, they can go on bottles at the new owners house, try to put a 4 to 6 week old kid on a bottle who is nursing mom...it ain't happening and with not enough milk the kid is stunted.
There is many milk borne disease that you simply never deal with in a bottle raised herd, mycoplasma, Johnnes, staph mastitis, CAE, the list is very very long.
You simply get more money for tested negative animals and for kids raised on prevention.
My does milk a whole lot more than what kids need to eat. So if I am going to milk them once a day after kids nurse to keep them empty, why not just milk them period. I sell milk for a living and letting kids nurse out all the milk that they don't need, and I can't wean them remember until after they are weaned...well shoot that can be 100's of dollars in milk and colostrum sales wasted.
My feeders are not set up in the dairy barn to handle kids, so they would be in these feeders.
Treating cocci and worms in the south is hard enough without kids being around adult manure from the minute they are born.
Ask the same folks who have posted above who they purchase from...they may sell dam raised kids from untested goats, but they prefer not to purchase them that way.
So for me it's a no brainer, yes my kids are delivered and raised by me. It fits the goals of my farm...YMMV. Vicki

**mygoat** · #17 07/07/07, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goatsareus

mygoat, I see that you are 17 y.o. and I want to make sure you and others understand my point here. BTW, nice web site and I too have as my #1 concern, animal welfare. That is the reason for my continuing posts on this subject.

It is not the responsibilty of a baby goat to monitor the health of it's mom's udder. If a goat has a lopsided udder, it is not the fault of a baby goat. It is up to the human care taker to monitor the health of the goats' udders. I am concerned that goat owners are not taking responsibilty for the care of their goats. To say that raising kids on their dams, ruins the udders, is placing the responsibility of the udder health with the baby goat, because it only nursed on one side. When we see a lopsided udder, we should not think that the baby ruined the udder, we should think that the caretaker was not doing their job. The caretaker must see that both sides of the udder has the milk withdrawn, it is not an option, it is necessary.

Agree? Disagree? Comments? Questions?

First, thanks for the nice words on my website. Yes, I am 17 years old and am proud to say *I* run my farm. My dad helps a little on the side and my brother couldn't care less.

I understand what you're getting at. I told the previous owner such when she started looking into goats again. (not to mention the doe was very skinny when I got her... she didn't up her grain after kidding) I told her it was a management thing and that there were just some things she'd have to learn to do if she looked into goats again. She got huffy and said she wasn't going to get goats, and if she did, they wouldn't be from me.

CAE prevention is real. It's proven that it is passed through colostrum. I've also heard that CAE can be spread within a herd other ways, too. It's not just a marketing ploy.

If not pulling kids works for you, go for it. Pulling my dairy kids is what works for me. I get all the milk I want and don't have to worry about udder damage, lopsidedness, etc. The babies adore me and make excellent pets and are much easier to work with throughout their entire life. And yes, I do have tamed dam raised goats from previous kiddings... they just are not the same as those bottle babies.

Also, now with the number of goats I"m getting to, I don't have time to tame those dam raised kids.

southerngurl · #18 07/07/07, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Also, now with the number of goats I"m getting to, I don't have time to tame those dam raised kids.

This is the thing that never makes sense to me. It doesn't take any longer to tame them than to feed them. It's easier.

I think what it is is that when you are bottle feeding, you HAVE to go out there and feed, if not you might get lazy about it. That's the only thing I can think of.

southerngurl · #19 07/07/07, 09:00 PM

Quote:

CAE prevention is real. It's proven that it is passed through colostrum. I've also heard that CAE can be spread within a herd other ways, too. It's not just a marketing ploy.

He was not disagreeing with that. What he was getting at is that he doesn't agree with having to pull them from negative does. If he gets a positive doe, he gets rid of it. The idea that you have to feed every baby pastuerized milk to have a healthy animal, I, and others, do not agree with. That's generally where the argument arises.

HaysFarm · #20 07/07/07, 10:29 PM

thank you all for sharing your input/view about this.
our goal, is for house hold milk and meat.
There's alot of info to take in and review. It's hard being new to this, cause there is always 2 or 3 sides to each thing. You never really know which way is right or worng.
Don't want anyone to be hurt, but at the same time don't want to take babys from there moms. And at the same time, anything i have to bottle feed i'm gonna love and not want to eat,,lol Thank you again everyone for the info.