doe born with out horns?

HaysFarm · #1 06/11/07, 10:58 PM

Got another one for you.
We were given a couple of very nice does.
the owner of the does told me up front that one of the does was born with out horns.Her brother had horns and her mother/father had horns.
Does this mean anything?
She told me that she was always told that a doe born with out horns was infertile? Is this true?
Always learn something new each day.
Thank you

sancraft · #2 06/11/07, 11:02 PM

Does she mean polled? That is the goat never grew horns. I have never had a goat born with horns. They always grow later. If she means polled, then no, it's not true that she is infertile. She just got the polled gene.

HaysFarm · #3 06/11/07, 11:07 PM

i'm so sorry, i never get my frist post right.
She was born polled i guess is the right way to say this.
She has never grew horns, right,
Sorry about that. I'll learn to get it right in the frist post one day. :-)
Thank you Craft. So it's ok it's not something bad right?

Wingdo · #4 06/12/07, 02:41 AM

I have a "polled" Boer doe that had her first set of twins this past spring. Her lineage had horns, as did all her siblings. I also have never had kids born with horns... human or goat! They always got 'em soon afterwards... lol

southerngurl · #5 06/12/07, 07:44 AM

I think what she's thinking of in regards to infertility is breeding a polled goat to a polled goat can cause hermaphroditism in the offspring of that breeding. She should not be infertile, but will just never need to be disbudded

crazygoatgirl · #6 06/12/07, 07:50 AM

nope she shouldn't be infertile....Just make sure that the buck that she is bred to has/had horns. Not a good idea to breed polled to polled...although some folks do......

gryndlgoat · #7 06/12/07, 08:01 AM

This is one of the coolest genes in goatdom, I think.

The "polled" gene is a dominant gene (let's call it H). The gene for horns is recessive to this (let's call it h). Every goat has two copies of a gene, one from Dad and one from Mom. So a goat with horns would get h from its father and h from its mother and be a double recessive hh. A hornless goat would be any goat that had at least one copy of H from mom or dad Hh, or a copy from both mom and dad, HH. The only problem with hermaphroditism comes from the combination HH, the double dominant, and from what I understand even that is not always a given.

So breeding a hornless goat that is Hh to another hornless goat that is Hh should give 25 percent hh(horned) 50 percent Hh (polled but no fertility issues) or 25 percent HH (polled with potential fertility issues).

Breeding a hornless goat that is Hh to a horned goat (hh) would produce 50 percent polled Hh with no fertility issues and 50 percent horned hh. So if you plan to keep kids out of your hornless female and are concerned about some of them being sterile, just make sure you breed her to a buck that has/had horns (hh) and you still might get hornless does, all of which will be Hh.

We have a polled Toggenburg buck who throws lovely polled does who have made wonderful mothers and milkers.

lyceum · #8 06/12/07, 09:16 AM

Polled goats rock! You don't have to bother with disbudding them.

We have a Sable buck that is polled, we have had several polled sons out of him, but all horned daughters. Go figure. Same goes for the blue eyes in my NDs. All blue eyed bucks and no blue eyed does. I want a blue eyed doe. Oh and a polled Sable doe kid.

Carisa

dosthouhavemilk · #9 06/12/07, 10:31 AM

Really, the problem occurs in HH "female" offspring. Homozygously polled males are fertile and then will always throw polled offspring.

My guess is either the doe's dam or sire was actually polled but was burned. Not uncommon since some polled goats still have bumps where the horns would grow and that can be mistaken as a horn.
We have a NuPine buckling who I wasn't sure was polled at first. Had I taken him to the vet's he would have been burned since he has bumps. I didn't and he is pushing two months old and no horns showing, just bumps under the skin. Our older Nubian buck is naturally polled.

HaysFarm · #10 06/13/07, 12:27 PM

Great then no worrys from me. Lots of good info. I didn't know if we were just going to have a buddy doe, or what we were going to do.
But i do belive i did read something, i don't know if it was goats or cows that if born with a male twin would be in infertile. Does anyone rember this or know about this?

pourfolkes · #11 06/13/07, 12:34 PM

I have a doe that had 2 does this year, both with no horns. 5 months later, still no horns, which I love. Does that mean that she will always have babies with no horns and also her babies too? Thanks

dosthouhavemilk · #12 06/13/07, 12:36 PM

In cattle, in bull/heifer twins, the chance a heifer will be a Freemartin and infertile is above 93% last I heard.
Males develop because of the existence of the testoterone. Females are the base gender and develop due to a lack of testoterone, so they develop after a male would have developed. In twins in cattle, they generally share a blood supply to the dam (sharing a horn). The developing male releases testoterone into the blood supply and the hormones enter the fetus that is to become a female. The hormones affect her development and the heifer in the twins is usually underdeveloped and can show strong male characteristics as she ages.
It isn't as common in goats because goats release eggs from more than one horn and generally the offspring don't share blood supplies.

dosthouhavemilk · #13 06/13/07, 12:53 PM

Does the dam have horns? Did the sire have horns?
Your doelings are most likely Hh. If they reproduce they just about have to be Hh, because an HH female is generally a hermaphrodite.
If they haven't grown horns at 5 months old it's pretty safe to assume you have two polled doelings.
If you breed them to a polled buck, he would most likely be an Hh, or he could be an HH. Looks at his parents. If one was horned and the other polled, he'd be an Hh. Polled is dominant. There has to be at least one polled gene for the offspring to be polled. There has to be to no polled genes present for offspring to be horned. So for a number of our goats, despite the fact that their sire is polled, they carry no polled gene and are horned.

When bred to a horned buck (hh and that is the "safest" approach) the offspring have a 25% chance of being naturally polled.
Our polled Nubian buck produced 12 polled offspring out of 18 kids this year. At least I am assuming the doeling I sold at 22 hours old was polled. I haven't heard back from the buyer yet. She had the appearance of a polled head. 7 of the 12 were doelings.

HaysFarm · #14 06/13/07, 03:26 PM

That's right, it's in cattle, thank you, i know i read it some where just couldn't think which it was.
Well i'm happy, she's polled and there is no bad side to that.
she is a very sweet girl, thank you again.

mary,tx · #15 06/13/07, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dosthouhavemilk

When bred to a horned buck (hh and that is the "safest" approach) the offspring have a 25% chance of being naturally polled.

Actually, a polled doe bred to a horned buck has a 50% chance of naturally polled offspring. The kid(s) will either inherit her (H) or (h), and from the sire, an (h). So it is either Hh (polled) or hh (horned).
mary

dosthouhavemilk · #16 06/13/07, 04:09 PM

Yup. Mary's right. I wasn't focusing...lol

AnniesGoats · #17 06/13/07, 04:17 PM

I have polled does in my herd. Generally, the kids born are also polled. The polled does are always bred with a buck that has/had horns. The polled bucklings are always considered "meat" kids on our farm.

The problem comes in when you breed a polled doe with a polled buck. The kids born from that breeding have a good chance of being sterile, and I have also read articles that state the kids can be less thrifty, more prone to disease.