Schizo goat!! Need tips.

[cjean]

Our Nubian/Sanaan doe, normally sweet and loving, tends to be a brat when around my youngest (11 y.o.) daughter. Often, but not always, when my dd goes in the pen to play with the kids, or to get all 3 out for a walk, the doe flips out. She'll ram her from behind, or rear up and threaten her, making her funny goat growls.
We really can't have this bossy attitude, but are not sure how to squelch it. Anybody have any goat training tips here?

[moosemaniac]

Go in with DD (for her protection), have DD face the goat and when she becomes "aggressive", DD needs to holler NO really loudly and if necessary, smack her in the nose or something. DD has to do this if she's the only one the goat does it to.

Ruth

[Idahoe]

Sounds like the doe *knows* your DD is a lesser being, and needs to be educated that she is not!

Goats hate to be whacked on the head. I used a "shim", a light piece of cedar or fir that couldn't really hurt anything but it is light and wide and makes a very loud SMACK when used on the poll of a goat. Like a rolled newspaper with a dog or cat. I had some adolescent wethers who liked to put their feet on me and it cured them. It's a dominance thing, so you have to "speak Goat" back to them, usually something physical like a smack or rolling them to get the message across.

[BlueHeronFarm]

We have one that is great with us, but headbutts kids. Since we don't have kids, we don't do much about it other than make sure we are there if children are in the pen so we can run interference.

...but you may also try a squirt bottle full of water. Goats hate water. And it works with "no!" for out LGD pup....may work for goats.

[cjean]

Sounds like the doe *knows* your DD is a lesser being, and needs to be educated that she is not!

I have to say, I am giggling as I read this. It is so right on. My dd's eyes are gonna get huge when I tell her she gets to actually go "goat-smacking". We have always taught the girls to be gentle with the animals.

She has tried the hollering of "NO!", already, moosemaniac. But the goat just doesn't believe her. She is a very bossy goat. So, I guess maybe the smacking may be necessary.

[cjean]

you may also try a squirt bottle full of water. Goats hate water. And it works with "no!" for out LGD pup....may work for goats.

Maybe this will work, though. Sounds good to me!

[Freeholder]

The doe isn't schizo, she's just being a goat. She is most likely the 'herd queen'. When you are there, she accepts that you are the 'herd queen', because you are bigger than she is. But a child, especially a small one, is fair game to be 'put in their place', in the pecking order, that is.

You've been given a couple of options that are good -- smacking, and using a squirt bottle. If those don't work, drag out the big guns -- flip the doe and sit on her. It's best if your daughter can do the whole process, but even if she needs some help with the actual flipping, she needs to be the one who sits on her belly and holds her down until the doe stops fighting it. I have to do this periodically with my bucks, and it works well. It's a real attitude adjuster!

Disclaimer: there is a *small* chance of twisting a gut using this method. I've never had a twisted gut from doing it, and all of my goats have been flipped at least a couple of times, but it could happen. But if you aren't able to get the doe under control, she could seriously injure your daughter -- goats are often very rough with one another, and they don't moderate their behavior for humans unless forced to. So you'll have to decide if it's worth the risk, should the doe not respond to the milder methods of discipline.

Oh, yes, and as for *how* to flip a large goat: take hold of both legs on the same side of the goat, and pull them out from under. They go down kind of hard, especially the ones that are too big for you to support as they fall, but like I said above, I've never had one injured (try to flip them on soft bedding, though). Unlike sheep, goats do struggle when they are turned upside down, so watch out for flailing hooves.

Kathleen

[cjean]

Thanks, Kathleen. This also sounds like good advice. Of course I know she isn't really schizo, but if you could see the face she makes when she gets ready to "attack", you just might wonder! Being part Sanaan, her big floppy ears go straight out and back, like an airplane, when she rears up. It's really quite funny looking. And the bug eyes....oh, boy.

Anyway, we'll be prepared to do goat-flipping, too (cow-tipping?). Thanks for the instructions!

[AnniesGoats]

I have an idea that might seem rather whacky. Is there a chance your DD can go into the pen and sit down, quietly, and do nothing but observe? What I am thinking is, this would give the nervous (if that is it) doe a little more time to trust your DD. I would not recommend that your DD go in alone, perhaps you can go and sit with her. The goat might eventually approach your DD in a curious manner, smell the fact that there is no reason to rear up, and then she might reconcile.

Yes, I've seen the look on my saanan's faces too, they can really look fierce when they are going after another.

[cjean]

Originally Posted by AnniesGoats

I have an idea that might seem rather whacky. Is there a chance your DD can go into the pen and sit down, quietly, and do nothing but observe? What I am thinking is, this would give the nervous (if that is it) doe a little more time to trust your DD. I would not recommend that your DD go in alone, perhaps you can go and sit with her. The goat might eventually approach your DD in a curious manner, smell the fact that there is no reason to rear up, and then she might reconcile.

Yes, I've seen the look on my saanan's faces too, they can really look fierce when they are going after another.

That sounds like a good idea, too, but doesn't quite fit this situation. We've had the doe for about a year, and our girls have spent alot of time with her. She's not nervous, just bossy, and wants someone to pick on, I suppose. She's probably bored, and her 2 kids are driving her crazy. She was a bottle-fed triplet, raised in someone's basement, so she would rather be a human!

[DQ]

Originally Posted by AnniesGoats

I have an idea that might seem rather whacky. Is there a chance your DD can go into the pen and sit down, quietly, and do nothing but observe? What I am thinking is, this would give the nervous (if that is it) doe a little more time to trust your DD. I would not recommend that your DD go in alone, perhaps you can go and sit with her. The goat might eventually approach your DD in a curious manner, smell the fact that there is no reason to rear up, and then she might reconcile.

Yes, I've seen the look on my saanan's faces too, they can really look fierce when they are going after another.

I just want to point out that Just because your are "nice" doesn't mean that animals will be "nice" back. I have seen many animals ruined, particularly horses because people just thought they if they just loved them enough, got them to "trust" them, etc.. their animals wouldn't hurt them. it doesn't work that way. goats/horses/cows whatever, don't know what hurts you!!!! they don't know that we don't head butt each other for fun and to establish a pecking order! and that we don't appreciate being climbed all over, or kicked or pushed or stepped on, adn that it could injure us. quite frankly they don't care if we die from it! they wouldn't know what they did or suffer from emotional moral turmoil over the consequences of their actions. animals primarily behave as their instincts dictate, we use their instincts to guide them into the behaviour we desire. an animal rarely attacks because it doesn't "trust" someone, unless it is cornered and truly feels its life is threatened. an animal will however attack in an effort to assert dominence over an individual. its not because they are "mean", distrustful, or have been abused as some people try to speculate (although certainly abuse can result in aggressive behaviour). appreciate your animals for what they are not for what you want them to be, and treat them accordingly. this is a huge issue with me....as you can prob. tell stepping of the soap box now

[AnniesGoats]

Good points, DQ.

I have successfully had goats tamed by just being in their pen. I agree, this can be dangerous, and if my life were on the line, I would not have done it.

A bottle raised goat, that responds to me well, for example, uses her horns in her adulthood to get her way. A friend can say blankly to me, "She is being mean." No, she is being a goat, an animal, and I always have to remember that.

[LFmenagerie]

Hello-
I am usually a lurker (thanks everyone for all the fantastic info-my goats love you for it, too) but I couldn't help letting you know about my experience here. The first goat we owned took advantage of my delicate health (bad back for about a year) and push up hard against me like a cat rubbing, bit me (yes-hard enough to leave bruises) in the legs if I wore shorts, and eventually went up on back legs, twisted head to give me a good hit. She made those mean noises that I never thought a goat could make. She didn't do it to anyone else but my youngest daughter wouldn't come in the pasture cause seh was afraid of her. I met a lady that came over with her son and they showed me how to 'dump' the goat. I couldn't do it - she was a huge Alpine, but my husband did for me, several times off and on for the next couple months until she learned not to be mean. Here is what they taught me: Standing at the goats side you reach over the goats frame, grab the goats feet that are closes to your own- tempting to grab the set that are on the other side but believe me it works amazing to grab the ones close to your own feet. Then in one quick move you dump her and set on (more like neel on) her. I was taught to keep a hand on her neck near her head so she can't get up. At this point you could be kinda laying on the goat holding her head/neck to the ground. The first couple times we did it I had to lay across the goat to get her to stop struggling. Then I was told to touch her everywhere she wouldn't let me so she understands that I am the boss. And don't let her up until she is calm and on your terms. If she shows attitude when you start to let her up she isn't ready to get up.
The goats name was Sabrina. I started to call her Sabrina the B....! I HATED that goat before I started to do that. Eventually I absolutely loved her. There has to be respect for the humans.
Pam in Minnesota

[lgslgs]

Give your daughter the power of the squirt gun.

Goats learn to respect the person with the squirt gun very quickly!

Lynda

[Feral Nature]

Lots of good advice here. Goats are highly intelligent. When using the squirt gun/bottle, reinforce the word "No!" or "Get back" or whatever with a squirt of water on a tough goat like this. With diligent repetition, the goat should eventually learn to mind the word without the squirt of water as negative reinforcement.

[Freeholder]

Originally Posted by DQ

I just want to point out that Just because your are "nice" doesn't mean that animals will be "nice" back. I have seen many animals ruined, particularly horses because people just thought they if they just loved them enough, got them to "trust" them, etc.. their animals wouldn't hurt them. it doesn't work that way. goats/horses/cows whatever, don't know what hurts you!!!! they don't know that we don't head butt each other for fun and to establish a pecking order! and that we don't appreciate being climbed all over, or kicked or pushed or stepped on, adn that it could injure us. quite frankly they don't care if we die from it! they wouldn't know what they did or suffer from emotional moral turmoil over the consequences of their actions. animals primarily behave as their instincts dictate, we use their instincts to guide them into the behaviour we desire. an animal rarely attacks because it doesn't "trust" someone, unless it is cornered and truly feels its life is threatened. an animal will however attack in an effort to assert dominence over an individual. its not because they are "mean", distrustful, or have been abused as some people try to speculate (although certainly abuse can result in aggressive behaviour). appreciate your animals for what they are not for what you want them to be, and treat them accordingly. this is a huge issue with me....as you can prob. tell stepping of the soap box now

Excellent post, DQ -- unfortunately 'Bambi' type movies (and books) have done a huge amount of damage by making an entire generation believe that 'animals are little people in fur coats'. They are NOT! It's foolish and dangerous to continue thinking that way! It's not even good for the animals, because when they've been let get away with everything under the sun, and become too much of a handful for their amateur owners, then they do end up neglected, abused, or having to be put down -- possibly because they've harmed or killed a person. Most of this stuff could be avoided if people would learn to deal with their animals AS THEY ACTUALLY ARE, not as we might like them to be! And stop anthropomorphisizing (spelling, LOL!)!!

Kathleen (sorry, rant off!)

[harplade]

amen to DG and Blue Juniper. My children get healthy laughs from Disney movies b/c they know the real animal world and animals are not, as you so aptly put it, little humans in fur coats. I'll have to use that line elsewhere but I'm with you on that. Did you hear that Whole Food Market is no longer selling lobster b/c they couldn't guaruntee that the people they sold them to would kill them in a humane way!!! PETA strikes again-this time in defense of the poor lobster!!!

OK too early on Saturday for a soap box moment.

Harplade

[DQ]

Originally Posted by AnniesGoats

Good points, DQ.

I have successfully had goats tamed by just being in their pen. I agree, this can be dangerous, and if my life were on the line, I would not have done it.

A bottle raised goat, that responds to me well, for example, uses her horns in her adulthood to get her way. A friend can say blankly to me, "She is being mean." No, she is being a goat, an animal, and I always have to remember that.

thanks, I just didn't want a complete newbie to see that post and think that any animal that comes after them just doesn't "trust" them. its a set up for a lot of frustrating interaction with their goats. I agree that is a good way to tame any animal, but just because they are tame does not mean the job is done. tame means they are accustomed to your presence and not fearful for their safety. it soesn't mean they respect your space or your position of authority or that they won't hurt you. I just want make sure people who are new to livestock understand that. thanks everyone for assuring me that I'm not a lone warrior battleing anthropomorphism...or however you spell it

[thaiblue12]

The water gun and a stick it what my daughter used to keep our buck away from her. He knew his place after a while and never came near her. But he never tried to go after her or butt her. I just wanted him to fear her and stay away. He was not tame so I did not want him anyway near her.
This is good advice and works well unless your goat is an idiot. I have one of those. He now answers to " Here Dummy Dummy!". He has been squirted, rolled, sat on and etc and he still does not learn. Maybe he is too young or just dumb. He is not mean and does not butt us. He tries to jump up, rub his head on you and etc. He wants to be near you all the time but is not doing appropriate behavior. I know it is wrong because a very "goat smart" person told me so ( thanks Emily! )
With our icky buck though the thing I told my daughter to do was be consistant, be firm and do not show fear. But like I said he did not come after her. I would not blame your daughter for being scared she was going to get knocked down. She is shwing great courage by going back into the pen!
I would have her swing the stick around before the doe even got close to her and smack her butt with it if she still kept coming. Or the water gun but make it a super soaker this way she can wet the heck out of her as she is coming with a good amount of water. Little ones squirt too little and you got to keep pressing the trigger. Although I thought I read on here where people put a small amount of vinegar in them for added deterrent.

[Patty0315]

Heck with being nice. Get a piece of milk hose fold it in 2 and tie it. When the goat comes at her whack it as hard as she can were ever she can. A couple if good stings and she wont be bugging her no more.


Patty