Why exactly is molasses bad?

[bluefish]

I'm curious because I have a Nubian doe that absolutely hates alfalfa pellets but loves rabbit pellets. The rabbit pellets have a bit of molasses in them. These are my only choices since alfalfla hay isn't an option. I let her have rabbit pellets for one week and her milk production went up to 3.5 pounds per milking. Not great, but doable. Now she's down to 1.5-2 pounds per milking. It's not really worth all the other hassles with her for that little bit. And I'm kind of stuck with her right now as goats are few and far between in my area.

Anyway, would I be killing my goat by feeding her rabbit pellets?

[moosemaniac]

The feed I use contains molasses.

Ruth

[Alice In TX/MO]

I think the claim is that it's not good for the pH of their rumen. It's just something I heard or read.

Weiss Nichts!!

Rose

[AnniesGoats]

Just my own experience, not that I am an expert.

I try to keep the overall molasses down to less than 5% of the total goat feed. The molasses can mess with the PH of the rumen, from what I have learned, and can cause problems, such as the rumen not manufacturing vitamen B. I dealt with 2 cases of goat polio before I discovered the high volume of molasses suddenly being added to my milled feed.

[Oggie]

Originally Posted by moosemaniac

The feed I use contains molasses.

Ruth

What do they do with the rest of the mole?

[moosemaniac]

Originally Posted by Oggie

What do they do with the rest of the mole?

Feet and head go into cat food. That's what makes 'em so mean.

Ruth

[southerngurl]

Originally Posted by Oggie

What do they do with the rest of the mole?

[fishhead]

Does she have free access to baking soda? That will help keep the pH of the rumen friendly to the bacteria that process the food for her.

[Idahoe]

I hope someone chimes in who has made the statements that "sweet feed" is not good . . . I do remember them, but not who and why!

My girls get the same grain mix they were on at previous owners. It's a mix known by prev. owner's name at the Coop, and it is redolent of molasses!! I'd like to make cookies out of it, it smells so good. I've read the "con" against sweetfeed, but have been hesitant to change their feed without more info. I'd be glad to hear it all again.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Molassas is a cheap source of energy, and like sugar which is what it is...ok I will give you iron sugar at the most, the blood level goes up really high and pluments really quickly, so it's not a good source of energy. It also contains iron which depletes copper, something in my area you dont' want to do.

Molassas feeds, gets bugs quickly and sours in the heat....wievels...I hate wievels.

Molassas fed over time makes the rumen more acidic, read up on rumen acidosis, no amount of bicarb is going to do anything about that.....

Molassas in the acidic rumen depletes B vitamins especially B 12 which makes your goats eat less efficently, which means she has to eat more...if she will and more than likely she won't, to keep the same body weight milk the same amount as a doe who eats raw grain.

Molassas is used to cover fines, byproducts and crap....protien sources like fish and feather meal, lard (like is what is in rabbit pellets) and the change of oils (linseed which is the worse for off flavor milk but doesn't have to be on the label, just veggy oils) that no goat would ever eat if it wasn't dipped in sticky sweet molassed chopped corn cob dust.

Molassses sweet feed for horses is made for the owners. If it's oowee gooey sweet than it must be good, it sure looks good enough to eat and smells so good! Must be wonderful! Yes for their single stomached couch potatoe horses who do nothing, a true working horse, no it's to hot. Like sugar and salt in baby food really.

The poorest quality feeds...horse and mule type feeds, generic all stock pellets, dairy lactation pellets at coops, can have up to 25% molassas in them. So what you paying per 50# for a bag that is 1/4 molassas, chopped corn cob and oat chalff and other byproducts? And then wonder why the girls are thin during lactaion or only twin.

Molassas is fluff and a waste of my money.

So there is the who and the why Vicki

[retiredbop]

I LOVE reading Vicki's answers to just about anything.

I learn so much.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

[Oldntimes]

I too, always enjoy Vickie's wisdom...I am in the process of switching from a sweet feed mix to mixing my own COB mix... I hate "Fluff" :baby04:
and they go threw the baking soda like no tomorrow so I know I need to get them off that....

[hoggie]

This is interesting. I feed my two girls a course mix - which seems to be what you call "sweet feed". I have an expensive non-GM feed that I ship in as they are young animals and I thought that, as a beginner, it would be better to buy in specially bought than to try and mix my own - I have mixed my own horse feed for years!

They are also fed a product called mollichaff which is basicallly chopped up hay with, you've guessed it, molasses added.

The goat I had the problems with earlier in the year has had some spells of what I think is "star-gazing" which I seem to remember is connected with goat-polio? And now I hear goat-polio mentioned again.

Their feed is, at the moment, course mix, flaked maize (good quality), handful of sunflower seeds, mollichaff, and a spoonful of sugar beet. Ad lib hay and a couple of hours grazing a day on whatever they can find - they have access to grass, weeds, trees etc so have a good variety while they are out.

It will be a while to take them off the feed they are on completely. What would you recommend moving them on to? Would Alfalfa chaff be better than the mollichaff. I can't get Alfalfa hay. Also what about silage/haylage? I seem to remember that is made with molasses too?

groan - got this wrong too

hoggie

[thequeensblessing]

From what I've gathered, it's not so much the molasses itself that is the culprit, but the quantity of molasses fed as well as the frequency of the feedings. This is a little long, but explains it well, and this is the way my goat vet explained it to me.

PEM and Molasses: The Real Story By Jackie Nix
Some goat producers are afraid to feed commercial molasses-based supplements due to a fear of inducing PEM (polioencephalomalacia) in their goats. While there are some valid concerns that must be addressed concerning use of molasses in a goat’s diet, overall, commercial mineral and protein supplement products that contain molasses are safe for goats. What is PEM?Polioencephalomalacia (PEM) is a noninfectious neurological disease of ruminants that results in softening of the gray matter of the brain. Blindness, muscular incoordination, circling, head pressing, spasms, and convulsions are all symptoms of this disease. The causes of this disease are not fully understood; however, there is strong evidence that point to the following as contributing causes: 1. Thiamine deficiency. The rumen microflora normally produce thiamine, along with all other B vitamins needed by the goat. Thiamine deficiency may be caused by thiaminases (enzymes that breakdown thiamine) found in plants such as bracken fern or by production of thiaminases by certain microbes in the rumen. Also, some sulfur-compounds are capable of destroying thiamine activity. Thiamine injections to animals showing signs of PEM often lead to recovery. However, low levels of thiamine do not always correlate with PEM development, nor do normal thiamine levels guarantee protection from PEM. 2. Sulfur toxicity. Sulfur is a necessary mineral for metabolism of rumen microorganisms and is a component of the vitamins thiamine and biotin. However when excessive amounts of sulfur are present (greater than the ability of the rumen microbes to utilize it), the excess sulfur is absorbed into the bloodstream as sulphides. Sulphides in the body can lead to necrosis of neural tissues. In addition, some sulfur-compounds can destroy thiamine activity. Many now believe that PEM development is more closely tied with sulfur excess than thiamine deficiency. 3. Acidosis. Acidosis is caused by rapid production and absorption of acids in the rumen when goats consume too much starch (primarily grain) or sugar in a short period of time. The rapid shift in bacterial populations (due to diet change as well as a shift in rumen pH) can promote the production of thiaminase. Acidosis can easily lead to PEM. The Relationship Between Molasses and PEMMolasses is a by-product of sugar manufacturing. Most molasses used in livestock feeds is derived fromeither sugarcane or beets. Molasses is used in feedstuffs for many reasons. It is a good source of energy and trace minerals including sulfur and it helps to stimulate rumen activity. Molasses is used as anappetizer to encourage consumption. It also acts to reduce dust in feeds and as a carrier for vitamins and other nutrients. When properly managed, it is an excellent feed supplement. Many stories of PEM in goats relating to molasses arise from producers feeding molasses-coated “sweet feeds” to goats. As stated above, when a goat’s diet is rapidly changed to a diet high in either starches
(grains) or sugars (molasses) the rumen environment is disrupted and acidosis will result. Under these conditions, PEM can also occur. Pelleted sweet feeds are high in both starch and sugar and thus can easily promote acidosis if misfed. The rumen is designed for relatively slow digestion of forages and other roughages. When rapid changes are made in ruminant diets problems will occur. A good rule of thumb in adapting goats from one diet to another is to use the 4-week system. For the first week feed 25% of the new feed and 75% of the old feed. The second week feed 50% old and 50% new. The third week, feed 75% new and 25% old and finally in the fourth week you can feed 100% of the new diet. This system allows adequate time for the rumen micro flora to adjust Mineral and protein supplements make up a very small percentage of the total intake for a goat – 1 to 2% for minerals and less than 10% for protein blocks. Under normal circumstances, average goats can be expected to eat from 0.5 to 1 oz. of mineral supplement per day. Exact figures will vary according to the size and breed of the goat, the type of supplement, the nutritional status of the goat, etc. How much molasses does a goat receive under these circumstances? This will of course vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and product to product. But for the sake of argument, in the case of the Sweetlix 16:8 Meat Maker mineral, a goat consuming 0.5 oz. per day will receive 0.07 oz. of molasses products per day or less than 0.1% of the total dry matter daily intake. In the case of the Sweetlix 20% All Natural Protein Block for goats, consumption of 4 oz. of this product will result in consumption of 0.6 oz. of molasses products or 0.3 % of the total daily intake. These are well under the levels at which problems occur. In fact, low levels of molasses are actually useful in stimulating rumen function. Can pasture-fed goats offered commercial mineral or protein supplements containing molasses develop PEM? Yes. But the likelihood that the PEM is caused by the supplement is extremely slim. In conclusion, the causes of PEM are not entirely known or understood. There is a loose connection between molasses consumption and development of PEM; however, this is most logically attributed to the development of acidosis or excess sulfur from diets high in molasses, such as those in which large amounts of sweet feed or free choice liquid molasses are fed. Goats on a forage-based diet receiving either commercial mineral or protein supplements in loose or block form containing molasses need not be concerned about the amount of molasses ingested.

[fishhead]

Thanks for the article.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

You need to also understand that Jackie is selling a product...SWEET Lix She can't come on publically and tell you that all that molassas is bad for the rumen of goats when it is a very large componant to all their products...it's why goats eat as much of the product as they do...if they only went to the product for the salt, then consumption would go down, they would not only sell less...but....they would not be able to have the word of mouth "Oh my god my goats loved this product so much, they ate it like crazy they must have needed something in it, I will never feed anything else!"....and that kind of comment from enough people on the internet, at shows and goat meetings and sales increase. Is it better with the molassas in it, no...it is just tastier to the goats.

It's one thing to have a mineral block or sack of minerals with some molassas in it...a whole nother thing to have the 'grain' your goats need to grow or milk or for their energy to grow kids, masked by molassas. In the end it is a waste of your money. Vicki

[hoggie]

OK - so pleeease someone tell me what I should be changing my goats on to - or should I start a new thread to ask this?

hoggie

[Patty0315]

Mix your own oats , barley , light corn boss and you can top with Calf manna. See whats cheapest in your area and talk to one of the feed company nutrionalist to help you figure things out. They may even mix it special for you if you buy by the ton.

What works for me here may not work for you . I started a post "perfect grain mix " I think not alot of answers but it may be a start.

Patty

[thequeensblessing]

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

You need to also understand that Jackie is selling a product...SWEET Lix She can't come on publically and tell you that all that molassas is bad for the rumen of goats when it is a very large componant to all their products...it's why goats eat as much of the product as they do...if they only went to the product for the salt, then consumption would go down, they would not only sell less...but....they would not be able to have the word of mouth "Oh my god my goats loved this product so much, they ate it like crazy they must have needed something in it, I will never feed anything else!"....and that kind of comment from enough people on the internet, at shows and goat meetings and sales increase. Is it better with the molassas in it, no...it is just tastier to the goats.

It's one thing to have a mineral block or sack of minerals with some molassas in it...a whole nother thing to have the 'grain' your goats need to grow or milk or for their energy to grow kids, masked by molassas. In the end it is a waste of your money. Vicki

Vicki,
As I stated, it was my vet who gave me this information initially. He stated that small amounts of molasses are actually beneficial to goats, and that in larger, more frequently fed doses cause the problems. As with every issue in our own lives and the lives of our beloved livestock; All things in moderation.
I trust my vet. He's not selling anything but medical advice for my livestock, so he has no agenda. This is the exact advice/information/knowlege that he imparted to me. Simply because this woman works for a nutritional supplement company doesn't mean she can't be telling the truth. I would prefer to believe that there are some honest and knowlegable folks in the industry who actually care about the livestock they are feeding. I'm not so cynical as to think the world has an agenda and can't be trusted.