Butter, and yogurt, and cheese,,,oh my

[retiredbop]

(Chanted to the tune of "lions, and tigers, and bears,,,oh my")

:baby04: Just a little silliness I was feeling.

OK, now for the question. From what I'm learning here a family of two can easily get all the fresh milk they can use from two does, with a buck for company.

But let's say they wanted to experiment with making their own butter, and yougurt, and cheese,,,,oh my. Is two still enough?

And let's go one step further. Let's say one of them is a 50 year old retired "old pheart" who is interested in sustainable agriculture and organic production of things like goat cheese for sale at a local farmer's market. No internet sales, just local sales once or two days a week. And PLEASE, no regular hours storefront on my secluded haven.

How many milking does would this old fool need? Maybe as many as 6? And how many can the old fool milk by himself by hand? We did as many as 12 when I was a kid, but there were 4-6 of us doing it too. (You should have seen the looks on the faces of those city raised foster kids the first time they got a good stream from a teat! I still believe the farm is why we were such a successful placement family.)

[IowaLez]

You can't make cheese and dairy foods at home in your kitchen from raw milk and sell them to the public without being a licensed creamery. That means you have to build a cheese room that is up to standards, and passes state inspection. If you want to use milk from your farm, then you must be a licensed dairy and have a milking parlor. Some states also require you to be a licensed cheesemaker as well. the exact rules vary by state.

[Jillis]

You could, however, make some nice goat's milk soap and make a nice piece of change, with as few as 2 to 4 goats and a decent recipe!

[HazyDay]

You can't sell it but you can still use it for your self. Im 15 and milking 3 nubians now and getting 2 1/2 gallons daily. I let the milk sit for 3 days then get the cream off the top. and then put it out to drink and then every weekend any milk left over is turned into cheese. I make other things like puddings and dersert dishes. If I was milking alpines or Saanens I would maybe get 3-4 gallons from 3! (I think I don't have though.)

[Freeholder]

He (or she!) had better check the laws in Pennsylvania. A lady near Philly who I bought some Nubians from (she frequently has goats in the Nubian top ten for production) sells cheese in Philly, to fine restaurants, I think. If I recall correctly she milks about eight does. Presumably she's doing all this legally, so it is possible in PA, just need to check on the requirements. Setting up a commercial cheese plant is expensive with a lot of red-tape headaches, but it can be done.

That said, given how sue-happy people are in this country, I think I'd rather sell soap than food.

Kathleen

[retiredbop]

I'm not even close to the checking the laws phase yet. This is still in the wild fantasy pipe-dream stage. I figure I've got at least 3-5 years before I'll even get any goats. Just dreaming, and measuring the dream against reality right now.

[13Blackbirds]

yep
welcome to one of the few states in the country to allow raw milk sales
(and cheese, and butter)
dream and plan and sell away
it's all legal in PA
(and VT and ME)
(and one of the biggest customers of raw milk from PA is - and has been for 15+ years now - the White House)

start small. forget how many you "need"
start where you are and see where it goes.
if you have 2 and you're willing to sell 1/2 of what you make to see what happens then you'll be ok.
if there are left overs - you'll have to take one for the team and eat them yourselves!
don't rush out and buy or do a lot.
start with what you have and see how it goes.
how cool if your two made enough to afford to buy 3 and then 4?
and maybe at 3 you'd feel overwhelmed and maybe not.
take it slow and you'll be happy at the end of every day instead of stressed.

(just my 2 cents!)

[cybercat]

About the only thing I miss about living in PA was raw milk. Wish more states were legal for it.

[Jyllie63]

If you can't sell raw goat's milk, can you "give it away" with a $10 bar of goatsmilk soap?

[chicky momma]

If this is your dream go for it! Just know there will be twists and turns. One way to avoid building the commercial kitchen etc...is to rent from someone who has one. Churchs are always a good bet, they have a commercial kitchen that is just collecting dust most of the time. Lisa

[Jillis]

Originally Posted by 13Blackbirds

yep
welcome to one of the few states in the country to allow raw milk sales
(and cheese, and butter)
dream and plan and sell away
it's all legal in PA
(and VT and ME)

Just a note from here in Vermont. To sell raw milk off the farm, you already need to be a licensed, inspected dairy. You may not advertise. The buyers must bring their own container. You may not sell more than 25 gallons a day.

To make fresh cheese in VT for sale, you must have an inspected cheese facility, and you must use pastuerized milk. You may sell raw milk cheeses if they are aged for over 3 months. Again, your must have an inspected cheese "factory". These cheesemaking facilities usually cost about $30,000 to build according to specs, AT THE LEAST!

Which is why I have switched my personal focus from cheesemaking to soapmaking for the time being.

I hope that helps.

If you want to know about the laws in PA, please ask Ruth. (moosemaniac)

[lynpea]

Well to get back to the OP question....yes two does in milk will supply enough for cheese and milk. I have two and there are 4 people who use it. Children drink it three times a day and a baby that drinks 24 oz. a day. I also use it for cooking. I don't skim it for the daily milk, but to make cheese I put it in a large pot in the 'fridge, let it sit for 3 days, then skim the cream. We don't get enough cream for all our butter needs. Using this system I can make cheese twice a week. I use three gallons at a time and get almost 2 lbs. of mozz and 8 oz. of ricotta. The recipe that I use is on FiascoFarm.com. Hope this answers at least some of your questions.... I don't know anything about commercial cheese making........lynpea..........

[Raftercat5]

Retiredbop: My hubby and I have 2 milking Nubians, who are currently producing almost 2 gallons a day. Last week I made cheddar cheese with 2 gallons, yesterday I made colby cheese with 2 gallons, today I made pudding with 1 1/2 quarts...we have milk on our cereal in the mornings we don't have eggs from our chickens, and some of our neighbors share in our bounty, too. Having 2 milk goats is PLENTY of milk for you and your significant other. Oh yeah...I made mozzarella cheese about 4 days ago, using 2 gallons. It freezes well and makes GREAT pizza!
- Kathy

[mtn.mama]

I suggest starting with one doe and working your way up, once you get used to the process, level of work, learning to make quality cheese etc. Its easy to get more goats later. How much milk is produced per doe is completely variable due to genetics, condition, time of year, etc. But you'll probably get between 1/2 a gallon and 2 1/2 gallons per doe per day. You need to know what kind of volume you want to consume/turn into cheese/sell before you know how many goats to get. But really, just starting with one is plenty.

[retiredbop]

13blackbirds, thanks for the info. I like the "just jump in" attitude, but I do need to plan a little bit or it wouldn't be me.

To all you soap people, I'm sure that Cindy will get around to that sooner or later.

mtn mama, I thought that goats were too social to be kept solo? That's why my plan has always been to start and see where it goes from there.

Thanks for the info everybody. I'm sure this forum is going to be key to making a successful start.

[JanetJ]

One thing that didn't get mentioned is that you can always sell your raw milk for animal food. I have a note posted at the feed store. In the Spring people are always looking specifically for goat milk for bummer lambs. I would not hesitate to sell some milk, or cheese, to a friend that asked for some. I do not go out looking for customers other than what comes through the feed store.

I have one doe in milk right now. (Saanen / nubian cross.) The other is due the day after tomorrow. I'm currently getting 1 1/2 gallons of milk a day. I make cheese every other day using 2 gallons of milk at a pop. I've been making cheddar, since that's a cheese that will last for a while. We have cereal and milk on those days that we don't eat fresh eggs. I've found a real good ice cream recipe, and we still have so much milk that we've taken to having white russians in the evenings.

[Spinner]

Here's a page where you can find out if it's legal to sell raw milk in your state. http://www.realmilk.com/happening.html

My state is fairly friendly about it.

Here's what they say about PA:

Pennsylvania
Raw milk sales are legal on the farm and in retail stores. Raw milk for retail producers must have a permit and can only sell to stores if they have their own packaging operation with labeling and bottling machines. Stores purchasing raw milk from farmers for resale do not ordinarily need a permit. Producers selling raw milk only on the farm do not need bottling equipment because the state permits customers to bring their own containers.

The only raw milk product that licensees can sell legally is cheese. According to the Department of Agriculture, this is because the state has a standard of identity regulation only for raw cheese, not for any other raw dairy products. If a dairy product does not have a standard of identity regulation, the Department will not issue a permit for it.

Update, Summer 2006
Raw milk dairy farmers and their customers have formed a private unincorporated association called Communities Alliance for Responsible Eco-Farming (CARE) whose members, while recognizing the government’s right to protect the public, exercise their right to disagree and waive their right to the government’s protection in the areas of food production. CARE is designed to provide protection to farmers and consumers from both pasteurization regulations and the National Animal Identification System (NAIS). The organization hopes to open up other CARE chapters in other states. For further information contact CARE at (717) 768-7848.

Update, Summer 2003
We received the following letter from Bobby McLean, in response to concerns regarding the sale of raw milk in Pennsylvania:

July 7, 2003

This letter is written in response to your concerns regarding the sale of raw milk in Pennsylvania.

Based on correspondence received, there appears to be considerable misinformation and concern over the raw milk issue. I will attempt to address these concerns in this letter. It is important to note there are no current or planned actions by the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture that will remove a dairy farmer's right to sell raw milk or a consumer's right to buy raw milk. However, all producers must have a permit from the Department and must follow the requirements of the permit. Further, the Department has no knowledge of any pending legislation to eliminate the sale of raw milk in Pennsylvania.

The sale of raw milk in Pennsylvania is permitted under the Pennsylvania Milk Sanitation Law (31 P.S. Sec. 645 et. seq) ("Act"). This law is intended to safeguard human health and safety by providing for the issuance of permits to, and regulation of persons and entities selling milk and milk products. The Act (at 31 P.S. Sec. 646) states: "no person shall sell milk, milk product or manufactured dairy products within this Commonwealth without first having obtained a permit from the Secretary".

Another issue that many have raised relates to the sale of raw milk products. The law prohibits the sale of raw milk products except aged hard cheese which is cured at temperatures of not less that 35 degrees Fahrenheit for at least 60 days.

If you have any questions, please contact Mr. Jim Dell, Chief, Division of Milk Sanitation, at 717-787-4316. Your concerns are understood and we want to work together to help insure that milk and milk products sold in Pennsylvania are safe and wholesome.

Sincerely,
Bobby McLean