How do I deal with THIS??

[Idahoe]

I have this posted on Vicki's forum too, just trying to get to as many as possible.

One of the pregnant does who got into the chicken scratch last week kidded without problems last Thursday with twin bucklings. Her udder was full of colostrum at the time, bagged up normally prior to birthing.

Friday I got her up on the stanchion and she was empty. The bucklings were suckling and I gave it another day. Saturday, empty again. The bucklings suckled frequently, switching teats and banging the udder, and giving up, over and over again. I pulled the bucklings last night, and milked her this am after about 12 hours. ONE PINT of milk, barely! I massaged her udder, really worked it in case she was holding back.

The udder feels dense and springy, like newly freshened udders normally feel. The bottom of the udder and teats were soft, normally warm, and just plain no milk in there.

Her temp was 102.6 last night. She is vigorous, eating and drinking fine. Her gait is normal, in fact, she really yanked me across the yard to get back to the pen after I milked her. She had the oral CMPK kitchen recipe posted on Vicki's board right after kidding and once again the next day.

She is a second freshener, and I milked her last year for six months. As a FF with a single kid on her, I got between a quart/quart and a half from her daily.

I'm at a loss, haven't heard or read about this one before. Any ideas for what I should do?

[manygoatsnmore]

Hmm. Could try adding beet pulp to her diet to increase milk. Continue letting the kids nurse - demand creates supply. Do the kids act like they are fed - bellies adequately rounded, full of energy? Some does do take a little longer to really come into milk. If you are worried about the kids getting enough to eat, do you have other does fresh? Milk out enough to give them an extra feed or 2 a day until her milk really comes in. If you don't have enough extra milk, there's always whole milk from the store.

[Idahoe]

When I pulled them last night, their bellies were empty. They were beginning to play in the morning yesterday, but layed around more (seemingly) in the evening, when I decided to post.

[fishhead]

Is it possible they were emptying her when you weren't looking?

I think it's safe to supplement with cow milk while they are nursing in order to let them create the supply.

[Idahoe]

Thanks for replying. Fishhead, I pulled the bucklings for 12 hours over night, and this morning she still had only a pint of milk. She's not they type to allow other kids to nurse her.

My other goats were bursting with new milk by this time. Granted, I bought her with a three month old bucklng last year, and don't know if she is unusually late coming into milk. I have to wonder if it weren't her illness, though by the time she kidded her poop was in berries and she was eating normally.

Just fed the bottle babies, and she and her bucklings are at the hay feeder, she stuffing her face as usual, bucklings standing nearby.

I was really hoping she'd be able to supplement milk for a few of the orphans! I guess I'm just not getting what I want lately .

[chamoisee]

What breed is she?
Did you see any afterbirth, and is there a possibility that there could be another kid left in her? (this shouldn't be the case if she's acting fine)
Does she have plenty of clean water?
Has she had a CAE test?
What is her body condition?
What is she eating?

My best guess is that between the diarrhea and kidding and the onset of lactation, she could be dehydrated, so water is the first thing I would check.

I would put those kids back on her. Their constant sucking will trigger more lactation if she is geared to make milk and if other conditions are reasonably favorable. Even if they need supplementation, they'll continue trying to nurse.

If everything else is fine and she continues to do this, I would get rid of her. Productive does are fairly easy to get. I would give her a week or two and then send her packing unless she's got a danged good reason not to pick it up.

Also, can you post a picture of her?

[Idahoe]

Here she is about 12 hours after she kidded. She is a grade LaMancha. As you can see, she looks OK as far as nourishment. Her udder was quite a bit larger right before she kidded. Those bucklings got their colostrum and then some! Her udder looks NO DIFFERENT today. My other does were having trouble walking at this point (today I mean).

Here afterbirth came out after the second twin. I bounced her and found the second twin, but empty guts after that.

She eats grass hay free choice, and as much alfalfa pellets as she wants in the evening. She's been getting this and a pound of grain concentrate all winter, just put her up to two pounds after kidding as she was pooping in berries. I'm pretty anal about their water. Her dam was CAE/CL negative, and the herd I bought her and the others from was closed.

I know she milked last year!! I milked her myself (I say this over and over to myself!).

I put the kids back on her this morning, and I'll just supplement them from now on. A pint of milk on a doe not nursed for 12 hours and three days fresh? Maybe I'm assuming the worst considering last week . . . but the kids are hungry and something ain't happenin.

[chamoisee]

Well, everything else sounds fine....I would give her a month to pick it up.

The other thing that could help is to give her probiotics, if her gut got thrown out of balance, that can help.

[Raftercat5]

She's a nice looking goat. You don't think she's self-suckling, do you? Are you giving her loose minerals, freechoice? The salt in the minerals will make her drink more water, which will help produce more milk, I think. Has she been wormed? Good luck with her.

[GoldenWood Farm]

Idahoe I have does who take a while to really kick in to gear with their milking and it ALWAYS worrys me! Brandy my one doe always takes up to a week or two to kick in to high gear on her milking which always freaks me out due to the fact that she normally produces trips :baby04: .

I would give her some time since she was very sick and that could have added strain on her body causing her to come into milk later. There also on Fias Co farm they have whats called Mo-Milk which I believe is supposed to help kick in milk production. If I was in your shoes I would bottle feed the boys or at least supplement them and then milk the doe at least once a day maybe twice to help kick in her milk production (yes it would with the kids on her too but the kids won't drink as much and milk her dry at this young age versus hand milking).

Justine

[Idahoe]

Yes, I meant to put in that they get free choice minerals, Sweetlix when I can get it. They've been on Purina brand in the last two months or so.

Thanks so much for all your responses!

I don't think it is self sucking . . . I'd have busted her by now .

She was routinely wormed right after kidding on Thursday. Her eyelids look pink and normal.

Justine, I sure hope you're right . I'm "ready" for it to be a medical problem but if it is just her nature to do this, well I'll take that too and fall on my knees in thanks!

Up on the stand, she ate much better today, not so worried about leaving the babies. Her udder was empty of course, but the milk tissue felt springy, the udder skin is definitely loose, not wrinkly but moveable.

I hope I'm just freaking after losing the two does. I never had a single problem healthwise with ANY of them except for scrapes and overdoing a few hoof jobs. So suddenly can the tides change! At least the bucklings are vigourously nursing her. Their skin feels nice and loose, they aren't shivering or just laying there. I'll weigh them again today and see if their gaining. They refused the bottle last night, took bottles hungrily the night before.

[Sweet Goats]

Now, I do not raise dairy goats, BUT I had a doe that did not produce much milk for twins. I was really getting worried. So what I did was offer her Molasses water as much as she wanted anytime she wanted. That is all it took. She filled up and had more then plenty. Good Luck.
Oh buy the way they are cute as ever and really quite a miracle.