Copper and Sulfer Deficent Questions

christij · #1 04/25/07, 09:30 PM

Okay I am worried.... and here I thought things were going to be easier after kidding and spring arrived.

1. 95% sure my little herd has lice -- everytime I'm out there everyone seems to be itching and their coats are dry and flaky - I did a brushing and it seemed the flakes were jumping back on to goat thus I am sure it's lice - I have read this could be due to lack of sulfer -- planning to treat with tea tree oil/ACV/water solution as soon as I find where I can get TTO
2. One of my guys is losing hair around his eye (black ND) - sign of lack of copper?
3. My two adult does have had clumpy poo - sometimes not even seeing pellets. At first I thought it was new spring greens then I thought well maybe that had a jump in worms so I just rewormed them (positive pellets) and its a week later and still not changing. I am going to beg hubby to drop of fecal for me to get a worm count, but this could also be another sign of needing copper?

I have Golden Blend Minerals out free choice with baking soda and salt also offered. I also add ACV 2/3x a week to water. My milker gets alfalfa pellets and grain on the stand 2x a day. Everyone else gets pellets at night and they all are offered grass hay. I am wondering if I am having an issue b/c they are on 1 acre with hardly any browse - they have taken it all out. My other acre I have them off to let it grow, but will be moving them to first of May. (My herd is 2 NDs, 2 does, 4 kids)

I have been thinking of adding seeweed ad lib for some time as well.......
And I think I need to add additional sulfer and copper short term but I'm not sure of amounts. Any thoughts/suggestions?

fishhead · #2 04/26/07, 10:05 AM

What's the copper level in the minerals?

I don't see how giving them sulfur is going to help with the lice. I think you will need some kind of insecticide.

DocM · #3 04/26/07, 12:01 PM

Dump the positive pellets, they simply don't work. Have a fecal done so you know what kind of worms/worm load you may or may not have.

Get some cattle ivomec, give it orally at 1cc per 50 lbs, it will take care of the worms AND the lice. A topical application of lice dust, as used for cattle, will work too. This time of year, I slick shear all my goats. The lice don't seem to enjoy a short haired goat as much.

Clumpy poo in my girls is usually from too much grain. Spring green gives them loose poo.

Just because you offer minerals doesn't mean they're taking them, I have several goats that won't touch loose minerals. I copper bolus all my goats now.

http://www.u-sayranch.com/goats/copper.html

christij · #4 04/26/07, 09:46 PM

Thanks for the copper article link.

The copper content is Min 0.15%

I was re-reading Pat Colby's Natural Goat Care book and under Lice she listed the need for additional sulfur.

I forgot to metion I am also going to use DE for the lice treatment.

fishhead · #5 04/27/07, 06:47 AM

I think most goat minerals are 1,000+ ppm so it sounds really low.

The flakes could be "jumping" back on the goats from static electricity.

christij · #6 04/27/07, 07:48 AM

That's true. I think I will dust their areas with DE since it's creepy crawly season just to be safe.
So it looks like I would need some additional copper....... I know I shouldn't trust words like the only mineral you need no matter what hay you feed....

full sun · #7 04/27/07, 08:38 AM

I have 2 black NDs that are chronically copper deficient. They don't lose hair around the eyes, but their coat turns an off color. I give them copper sulfate (food grade from jeffers???) 1/2 t once a week. I mix it with water and a little maple syrup and drench. I have bolused wth copper and that works wonderful for about 6 months and then you need to do t again. It's hard to do. I was using gold blend minerals too. I have switched just this week.

Jennifer

DocM · #8 04/27/07, 08:46 AM

Copper bolusing is an art, I'm coming to realize. A drench gun fitted with a rubber bolus holder, and then filled with something sweet, works wonders.

ozark_jewels · #9 04/29/07, 03:32 PM

I agree with Doc about dumping the Posotive Pellet Dewormer. Tried that years ago....doesn't work. Worm them with an oral liquid that *works for goats in your area* and you'll be much happier with the results.
I would try the copper bolusing. You have few enough goats so it shouldn't be too big a chore and it sure would be worth it if it helps.

christij · #10 04/29/07, 04:00 PM

Emily do you recall if Cassie had any of the brown on her back legs and top of tail? I know out of the hundred head herd remembering the exact markings is probably a long shot.

ozark_jewels · #11 04/29/07, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christij

Emily do you recall if Cassie had any of the brown on her back legs and top of tail? I know out of the hundred head herd remembering the exact markings is probably a long shot.

Absolutely. Cassie does have brown points at those areas and always did. If her sides start getting coppery or the areas of her legs that were always black, that would be a worry. You underestimate my memory.....I may not remember your name after I meet you, but I can remember a goat!

dosthouhavemilk · #12 04/29/07, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozark_jewels

.....I may not remember your name after I meet you, but I can remember a goat!

Ditto, ditto, ditto...I am horrible with names and remembering faces...but ask me about a goat or a cow? No problem...lol

treasureacres · #13 04/29/07, 07:58 PM

Can you use this dusting powder with a pregnant goat?

Shazza · #14 04/30/07, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishhead

What's the copper level in the minerals?

I don't see how giving them sulfur is going to help with the lice. I think you will need some kind of insecticide.

Yellow Sulphur powder given at a teaspoon a head for a week WILL RID THEM OF LICE....guaranteed. Please try the "alternative" before choosing chemicals.

Shazza · #15 04/30/07, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christij

Thanks for the copper article link.

The copper content is Min 0.15%

I was re-reading Pat Colby's Natural Goat Care book and under Lice she listed the need for additional sulfur.

I forgot to metion I am also going to use DE for the lice treatment.

<sticking up for fellow Aussie> Pat Colbys book is our goat bible....it all works...although I do struggle with her "curing CAE with vit C"....which by the way here in Aus we call "CRV" Caprine retro virus.

Milk n' Honey · #16 04/30/07, 07:55 AM

My vet said that I should not use the Positive Pellets. She told me that they are not effective. We now use ivomec. It seems to work well for us. With a copper deficiency, the goat's coat is usually dry, dull and brittle and will eventually bleach out. I saw a picture of a Toggenburg who was totally white and after copper supplementation, began to turn chocolate colored again. Make sure you are buying a free choice mineral that is specifically formulated for goats only. If it is for sheep and goats or is an all livestock type, the copper levels will be too low. The sulphur sounds like a good thing to try but for a person like me who has over 20 goats, it isn't very feasible to apply something like that every day for a week. I'd try it if I only had a few though. We've had a horrible time with lice this year. We didn't realize how bad the lice were getting. With lice infestations, they will start getting bald spots where they scratch and rub a lot. We had some bald noses and I realized they needed treated at that point. Also, some nasty looking hocks where they had been biting their legs to scratch. Everybody is treated now so we should see some improvement now, thank goodness. Just having some sunshine, warm weather and shedding goats is helping. Good luck to you.

Sweet Goats · #17 04/30/07, 10:34 AM

I just heard that those possitive pellets are worthless for goats, but great if you want to use them all over your pasture.

Dreaming2Loudly · #18 04/30/07, 04:59 PM

"I just heard that those possitive pellets are worthless for goats, but great if you want to use them all over your pasture."

Really? I have been wondering what I was gonna do with those!

christij · #19 04/30/07, 09:24 PM

Where does one get yellow sulphur powder?

Emily - thank you! You have an awesome memory. Now Miracle's back leg hair was really hairy before I shaved it off this weekend and the tips of her her hair had a reddish tint..... I think Cassie still looks normal but I will be giving her a very critical eye everytime she hits the stand.

I am kicking myself for not testing the soil and getting it balanced before the goats! We have been cutting browse for them and they are like kids in a candy store.

I don't know if you can treat PG goats with DE -- mine have already kidded.

The mineral I am feeding I bought through Hoegger and toted being formulated for goats... I guess not enough for me!

Shazza · #20 04/30/07, 09:42 PM

You get Yellow Sulphur powder the same place you get Copper powder (blue)...at a Feed produce store....when you need to add either of these you can very simply add to their feed. There must be somewhere you can buy these minerals loose. Where do you buy your Calcium/Magnesium?
And and with the Sulphur you only add it everyday until the lice disappear (meaning the levels of sulphur in the goat have reached a level to deter the lice)...then 1 teaspoon per week as a maintenance dose until the lice season has finished.