Buck is getting on my nerves

[dosthouhavemilk]

Warning...rant about to take place.

We have a number of bucks...right now, we have six bucks. This Fall we will be down to 5 bucks.
In the 10+ years we've been breeding goats, I recall two bucks that just would not behave. Cam was a horned LaMancha/Alpine buck. Our first buck. We got him at weaning. He ran with the herd all year round. He was two when he was shipped. Every side mirror on the place was gone and the day he attacked dad who was going to work the heifers, was the day he sealed his fate.
We had one Nubian since and then those two years when we kept things in tact for "a better price" and had kids from them.
Then we got William (Boer/Saanen) and Charlie (Boer/Alpine/Togg) in 2003. They were a month old and we hand raised them. A year later the decision was made to sell one. Pretty easy choice. Charlie would rear up at me and I had to start carrying a stick with me. He was gone. William is still here and the biggest sweetheart in the world.
Last year, I brought home a yearling Boer buck (hand raised) and a one week old Nubian buck. Rudy (the Nubian) is a puppy dog. Wags his tail when he sees you and all that. Bo (the Boer) is also well mannered. He had his rear tendons removed by dogs a short time after I brought them home so he learned to trust us completely in the months it took him to regain use of his hind legs. I'll hate to sell him this year.
In November of 2006, I brought home a 15/16th Boer buck. 8 hour trip to get him. The price was right, he is huge. I knew when he reared up at the sight of me it would be a trial to get him under control. He had been used as heat detection but had not been allowed to breed anything. He had been hand raised on prevention. He had horns (which I do not allow here if I have the choice). The price was right, I loaded him up and brought him home. Not surprisingly he ended up pinned on the ground within a few weeks of arriving here. That is how I train my bucks. I pull their legs out from under them and then pin them to the ground.
I had to pin him again about three months ago. He was picking on William and acting cocky towards me. He calmed down after that.

Well, he just bloodied my leg. Just a small spot where he horned the back of my leg as I walked by but the placement is such that it hurts when I sit down. In no time at all he found himself pinned to the ground and his face shoved in the dirt.
I was quickly putting together the ad I was going to post and sell him with....lol
Stupid buck.

He'll learn or he will go. Pretty simple. I don't have time to put up with idiots and bucks are a dime a dozen.
Unfortunately, my little 9 month old Nubian buck fancies me. I have a bit of work with him as well. He was crippled for his first two months of life so it is harder for me to bring myself to knock him on the ground. That and I keep hoping the doelings in with him will see that he likes me and will come around. Hard to do when the one animal in the pen that approaches me has to be knocked down and sat on...lol


Here's Boomer less than a week after I brought him home. He was 8 months old.

[MandersGoaters]

he's a beautiful buck! i had a problem with that exact same thing! I was doing the same thing trying to teach him "i'm the boss" well....i htink he started to expect it and kept misbehaving more....so I got a thick collar with a rope...and everytime he trys to test me or is just being horrible with the grain(he doesn't get much anyway) I tie him up! he throws a major fit! but in a few minutes he calms down and i'll turn him loose again..he's fine after that...here lately the past week i haven't had to tie him up, he's doing better...i think he acts like that cause i got him when he was five months old,he is now a year, he mayyyy be a little spoiled!!!!!! but again he is a pretty buck!!! good luck with the hatefulness!!!

[CountryHaven]

For myself I don't know that I would consider bucks the same as dogs in the 'teaching them by conquering' them methods. Putting them on the ground may temporarily work until they've regained a little more strength and once again consider challenging you for leadership. It's in the nature of the buck to challenge what he thinks is a leader. In a way, I think you might be inadvertantly 'teaching' them to fight you.

I may change my mind on that in the future, lol, I don't know. I've yet to have a buck that has given me reason to even consider the challenge... but... when it comes to fighting a 300 pound boer buck, one must consider the possibilty of loosing. To me it's a slightly better idea to make sure you're never in a possition to have to fight them. I always try to plan my workings around any buck (or stallion here at my place) to think first what would be the best way to approach a chore so that it does not invoke the thought of a fight.

[dosthouhavemilk]

The approach of pinning them to the ground embarasses them more than anything. The key is to not let up until they stop struggling. I only needed to do it twice for William in his four years. He can be led away from does in heat by his collar.
They have to understand their role. I am the top. You cannot be above me. I am not a fellow goat and I will not be treated the same. It has worked thus far for me. I have a 4 year old buck that I can lead with an injured foot and a pinky during breeding season. I had to do that last year...he had gotten out, my foot was injured, but he walked beside me as he should, away from the does in heat.

Boomer there, is tied for feeding. Otherwise he beats up the does he is in with. He did end up tied after the incident because I still had to catch Star Baby and put her in the other pen.
He had no reason to horn me, he just did. I was walking past him.
After he was pinned and then tied, I let him go to see what he would do. He wasn't puffing himself up at me and he came over for his scratches. He's young yet and has only been here 5 months. I haven't handled him a whole lot in that time ebcause I've been busy at the other barn with goats kidding.
I work closely with my breeding bucks. They are handled constantly. I don't have the time or patience to put up with bucks that don't get it. I could ship him to the sale barn at the drop of a hat at this point.
They need to learn when they are younger because they do get bigger. At this stage, I can still drop him easily, when he gets bigger? He needs to be respectful or he will need to be sold. Our set-up doesn't allow for ornery bucks.
I'll spend more time with him now that Spring is here and he learn or he will leave.
That and I'll put up a rope (that is such a marvelous idea Kim!) for him to scratch his head on. Most of his issues right now is his head itches and the horns prevent him from getting a good scratch so he thinks I should help....

I've grown up with Jersey bulls and I wouldn't dream of dropping a Jersey bull...lol I have immense respect for the male hormones, but I also do not have the time or set up to deal with out of control hormones. If you give them an inch they will walk all over you.
He'll be put in his place yet.

Just one more reason I'll stick to buying buck kids at a week old and raising them myself. Then I know how they were raised and I can imprint on them from the start who is who.



I should point out that the goat herd has been under my care and basic management since 2001...so just half the time. I care for the 100+ head on a daily basis....I just need cooperative animals.

[CountryHaven]

I absolutely agree with the need for animals that are cooperative, and not dangerous to be around. An obstinantly ornery buck, or a mean stallion would NOT be staying here either... simple as that. My health is worth more than any animal on the place. No argument with you on that one. Like I said, I might even change my mind on the 'pinning' issue. I know it works for dogs, especially 'higher pack order' type dogs like Malamutes. We owned them and it was the 'only' way to get the attention of most of the males and their respect... just not sure it works the same in a male goat's mind. LOL However, like I said, I've only had a few bucks over the years and it has never been an issue for me.... not yet anyway. I have yet to have a buck that I could not lead anywhere, at any time, without resistance. Now I do have a brand new full-grown male boer (very, very big).... so far though, he's a pussy cat. We'll see how things go as time goes on.

[Jim S.]

Here's how I "train" my wild goats to act like big galoots.

1. Get a bag of range cubes. Pack every single pocket tight with them. The goats will later sniff me up as they get confident.

2. Sit on the pasture so I am not towering over them. They begin to come around out of curiosity. Talk gently to them.

3. Feed them the range cubes. It takes some time before they will take them from my hand. Toss some out a few feet to curiois goats, then gradually draw them in to me.

4. Spend an hour a day doing this for about a week or so. It's addictive, so I often find myself looking forward to it. If I can do it a month, and gradually get them accustomed to me petting them, then I am really in!

5. Tah-dah! Every time I come out, they will come to me. No attacks.

[CountryHaven]

Yeah I like your style for getting scared critters to want to be around you Jim, in fact I'm employing that method now with my new girls who think I'm the boogeylady... BUT what would YOU do if you had a buck who thought you were prime candidate for a power struggle?

[bergy5]

Manders
That is very interesting. I have a friend that raises horses & his saying has always been.
Tie them up long
Tie them up often
I would have never thought of applying it to our goats. I'm going to have to think on this.

[KimM]

When my buck gets ornery, I get ahold of his beard and he shuts right down. When that won't work, it'll be a cattle prod to the nose.
Can't very well flip ol' Atlas. LOL!!

The rope thing - I tie a heavy rope fairly tight from corner to corner in his stall and he uses that to scratch between and all around the base of his horns.

[MandersGoaters]

we have and train horses too and thought it would be useful for goats and turns out it was! it's worked very well for me, i also have a huge glutton of a nanny and have to tie her up sometimes as well! but she weighs about 155 and poor little "earl" only weighs about 100(just a year old) i have to tie her to the cornerpost in the barn and earl can be on the gate LOL she'd pull that gate right over even when it was latched!when someone looks at our goats they always ask, why does some have collars and some don't...well they are the onry ones! Tami, i can't figure out how to reply to a private message so i'm gonna not do it againLOL

[dosthouhavemilk]

Nope, you can't easily flip Atlas. That buck is more impressive in person than he is in his pictures!

For does that weren't tamed as kids (about half are tame and half aren't), I tame them in their last month of their first pregnancy. I try and handle all the kids in their first few days of life...but when you have 20+ running around with 3 does threatening to kid....well..I am only one person and have issues (Bipolar/SAD) that prevent me from always being up to snuff when the does are kidding. The kidding is what helps me survive winters though.
All does due within the coming two weeks to a month (I prefer to have them at the milking barn a month before they are due) are clipped and fed at individual feeding stations. Just like they do at Fias Co Farm. As many as 20 at a time in each kidding group. This is the only time of year they are fed individually (unless they are being milked). A couple of weeks before they kid to about a month or two post kidding. Every doe has to be clipped before anyone is fed. So every day, those flighty does have to give in at some point and be clipped or no one gets their feed. There was one yearling doe last year that did not tame down. She was only in the barn for a month though. She tamed down more this year.
A number of does that were previous unapproachable are now love bugs after this system.

Frankly, I don't really want 100+ goats coming over to me when I go in the pen. There are about a dozen I trip over regularly and the idea of carrying feed in my pockets? Scares me...lol
It makes a lot of sense if you have a smaller herd and I should try it with Achilles' girls but they'll be tamed down later. With Achilles constantly wanting to be with his momma (me) when I am in the pen, the does are realizing I'm not so bad afterall.

[fcnubian]

Well I wont be much help because I trust no buck, my buck is flat out mean but I do not allow ANYONE in his pen, when I enter the pen I take a stick or piece of 2x4 with me and I am not afraid to wack him good with it if he it trying to hurt me. Most of the time he stays back if I have it in my hand as he's been hit before. If I have to do work on the fence I'll tie him up so I know he wont try to smash my fingers. If he didnt produce nice kids this year he'd be gone. He was bottle raised to. Cant tell it though. I have tried the flipping him and pinning them to the ground but as some one mentioned they get bigger and stronger. He's a pygmy with horns. Its much easier and safer for me to not go anywhere near him unless I absolutely have to. His hay/grain/water buckets are at the edge of the fence so I can just reach over the top and dump the stuff in. I am not wanting to trim his hooves and give him his shots this spring. GAH! I'll be getting a nubian buck in a few months. He'll be disbudded though. I prefer them disbudded and have made the rule that I will no longer own horned goats. Too many injuries, does, bucks or wethers. None will be horned. Much safer in the end for me and anyone else who enters the pens.

[KimM]

OH MY, that would be like dropping a big piece of meat into a pool of piranhas here!! That scares me wayyy worse than going in the buck's pen. LOL!

Originally Posted by Jim S.

Here's how I "train" my wild goats to act like big galoots.

1. Get a bag of range cubes. Pack every single pocket tight with them. The goats will later sniff me up as they get confident.

2. Sit on the pasture so I am not towering over them. They begin to come around out of curiosity. Talk gently to them.

3. Feed them the range cubes. It takes some time before they will take them from my hand. Toss some out a few feet to curiois goats, then gradually draw them in to me.

4. Spend an hour a day doing this for about a week or so. It's addictive, so I often find myself looking forward to it. If I can do it a month, and gradually get them accustomed to me petting them, then I am really in!

5. Tah-dah! Every time I come out, they will come to me. No attacks.

[chris30523]

I don't feed mine treats either.It is hard enough to get to the feed trough at feeding time.I would be mobbed every time I entered the gate. I have only had three adult bucks two are sweethearts and the other went to the sale and is now someone elses problem! I never could get him to respect me.I tried about everything he was fine with my husband but he attacked me everytime.I am the one who cares for the goats so we couldn't have this.The two I kept are 100% Boer and the other was Kiko .I don't know if it has anything to do with breed .