I think the dog did it (kind of graphic)

[mousebandit]

Yesterday, during chores my son came running back to the house from the big barn, and told us all the barn goats were dead. (Two nubians, two pygora 4 mo. old kids). He said one of the pygoras was right inside the barn doors, and the others must have been drug off because they were nowhere to be seen.

We headed out there, and sure enough, right inside the main section of the barn (where we keep hay and grain and stuff, not where the goats sleep), there was a pygora. The door from the sleeping area to the center of the barn had busted open. The odd thing was, the buckling didn't have any obvious wounds - no blood or fur torn off - just had his neck twisted around funny - I'm sure it was broken.

We were just starting to get ready to sweep the south pasture looking for the others when we heard some noise from the back of the barn. Lo and behold, the other three had somehow managed to get themselves squished into a feed chute between the sleeping area and the center area of the barn, and get all the way to the back to hide. They were terrified. I can't imagine what they must have done to get in there - it's about 18" (maybe 2') wide, and there were pallets and stuff blocking their way. They must have had a horrible ordeal.

So, we're thinking it must be our younger dog. She has been quite the pill so far - we really are going to have to spend WAAAY more time working with her and training her with the animals I guess. But I'm surprised that there was no blood or wounds. Before, when she's been naughty around these goats, she's snapped at their ears (the nubians anyways). I would think she would have done more damage if it was her. We haven't seen any sign of the cougar since we got the dogs, and the cougar always fully slaughtered and drug around anything it killed, anyways. This buckling was about 4mo old and was pretty sturdy and quite fast, so it had to be a substantial animal that did it. Just weird that the neck was broken but no other wounds.

Any ideas other than the dog? I'm off to buy MORE and HEAVIER latches for the barn doors. I need a few baby monitors so I can keep track of anything major going down in the animal areas.

SIGH.

Tracey Mouse

[Feral Nature]

If you suspect your own dog of doing this, do you really think more training will stop it? I won't tolerate a dog like that. Sorry, just my opinion as i have had too many problems in the past and have no tolerance for these things. I agree that a big cat would have made a mess of things and not just broke a goats neck, perhaps the goat brokes it's neck while fleeing.

[mousebandit]

That's kind of what I thought, about the broken neck. My husband is a big proponent of training dogs, and we just got this one a couple of months ago. He's pretty certain that she's trainable, we just need to get on it on a daily basis and stay on it with her. I don't think he'll get rid of her without giving it a serious effort. But, if after some hard-core training sessions, there's no improvement, then he probably will send her away. (Which would really be sad, because she came to us with her daddy, and they've never been separated, and their previous owners felt very strongly about them staying together.) I think we need to devote some more time to this before giving up on her. Killing a kid, even running it to death, is a serious matter, though.

Tracey Mouse

[Feral Nature]

What kind of dog? Also, the previous owner got rid of them and should have no say on how you run your farm.

[mousebandit]

She's half german shepard, half blue heeler - I think it's the heeler that's making her so prone to over-excitement followed by the misbehaving. Her daddy is full gs and he's calm as can be, and LOVES the goats and kids and chickens to pieces. He sat at the door and cried when the kikos gave birth.

Actually, come to think of it, the chickens we have and the kiko mamas we have all came from the same home where we got the dogs, and they all pretty much free-ranged together with the dogs, and nothing like this ever happened.

I know the previous owner gave them to us (she's going through a divorce and moving), but we just wanted to try and honor her request, if possible. Not written in stone, but we'd like to try. Besides, we sure love this dog already, and are hopeful that with some more training, and maybe a firmer hand, she will calm down.

[fishhead]

If it was a lion I would expect to find punctures on the neck behind the head. They might be shoved full of hair and be hard to see.

[mamajohnson]

mousebandit, I agree with ferrel nature. I have wasted TONS of time/love/patience on dogs that were not worth it. If they start killing or attacking, there is no hope. She should be sentenced to a life of 'chain' living or pen living, or another home. Believe me. Been there, done that, over and over and over again. Dont keep at it too long. If your giving the dog *one more* chance - just let it be ONE more. I have lost so many birds/rabbits/pigs to dogs that could not be trained.
I have 3 on chains now, no one will take them, I dont have the heart to shoot them. Dont try to walk in my shoes, it ain't fun.
It sounds harsh, but it is what I believe.

[Feral Nature]

Blue heelers make poor goat dogs. I am only giving my opinion, but I would not have it around. I used to breed and train German Shepherd when i used to live in the city, and I found them to be quite trainable and trustworthy around people (I never had them around livestock, but I did have complete control over them as I put them though extensive formal training). But a heeler is a true herding dog and has a harder time fighting it's own instincts. A German Shepherd has more control over such inclinations. Keep the heeler mix around if you must, but don't be surprised if more goats are injured or worse. And it would be ashame if the GS started following suit.

[Vashti]

I've raised weimaraners and Bernese Mountain dogs. Once any dog, IMO gets a taste for blood they cannot be trained not to go after that particular animal. It's extremely difficult to train out any kind of natural hunting/herding instinct either. We had a couple of beautiful weimaraners that were loving as can be kill all our chickens (about 50) and turkeys in one fell swoop. They were both ashamed and cowering in a corner of the barn when we ran in there to see what all the noise was about (they knew that they had done something wrong without my even saying anything to them), but we had to find new homes for them because we knew that they would attack the chickens again, and we were preparing to bring in goats & cattle too. It was just time for them to move on, even though we loved them very much. It woudln't have been fair to provide them with temptation again and punish them, or have to chain them up. It's a tough decision, but you should do what is best for your family and your dogs.

[Feral Nature]

Here are some links re: Blue Heelers (Australian Cattle Dogs):

http://www.digitaldog.com/dog_breed/...ian+Cattle+Dog)

http://www.bluespiritkennel.com/Articles

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:...nk&cd=10&gl=us


And LGDs (Livestock Guardian Dogs), which is what you should really have with goats, especially with a cougar around:

http://www.lgd.org/

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/livestck.html

http://www.gotpetsonline.com/picture...guardian-dogs/

The whole atmosphere of my farm has changed since I added Great Pyrenees. I am sure other GP owners will say the same.

[jen74145]

So, what do we have... three panicked (albeit safe) goats and a dead, markless buckling. Why are we assuming it's the dog when a cougar apparently lurks around? They might have seen/caught scent of the cat and panicked, not neccessarily the dog. Seems more likely to me, since they are familiar with the dog and may have, if the dog charged them, not reacted in quite so panicked a fashion, whereas the cougar would send them into a tizzy, KWIM?

[Feral Nature]

Because I have seen so many goats killed by "good" dogs without a mark on their bodies. The same dogs that have been around them for years. The goats that were not killed in the attack dieing slowly of shock, hundreds of yards from a pen they never got out of in their life. Other goats with their entrails pulled out of their rectums. Bellies ripped out. Because i don't give a dog half a chance any more if i have any doubt whatsoever. because I lost nearly 30 goats to "good dogs". because i have a zero tolerance policy.....that's why.

[leecofarm]

i have one or two pyrs that i believed was killing chicks. caught them in the act of eating one and i made such an impression on them that the now grown chickens were completely ignored. it was wonderful. now with new chicks again on the place i have the same chick killing problem again. i can't prove that its them or even one of them. i'll just lock the chicks up until they get to be adults.

[GoldenWood Farm]

I have to say something here....dogs can be trained to be around goats. Our first goat was killed by our own dogs yep our dogs. WE where stupid and didn't make it hard enough for the dogs to get to her and so they got to her and "played" with her and ended up putting her into severe shock with horrible horrible wounds on her flanks...she was put down. We since then have worked and worked and worked with those dogs (and any new dogs) through an electric collar (which is IMHO the best thing ever created for training) and now I trust the dogs with the goats completely. These where German Shephards and one Boxer that did this. Now the oldest male(who was the main attacker that killed my girl I am guessing) is the sweetest thing with all our does...I trust him with their life and he is around the babys from birth. Would I leave them alone with them with no one watching in the pen with them heck no BUT they can be trained and worked with.

So I don't believe that once a dog tastes blood they are good for nothing as these guys have proven it is not so. Not all dogs are like this I will grant you that but please please don't do anything rash without working with the young dog first.

On another note cougars can kill without leaving a mark. I had 20 or so young muscovy ducklings killed and their bodys left lying around with not a mark on them and that was a couger (spotted it taking off a couple of other times with some other poultry we had ).

Justine

[thaiblue12]

Where did this "taste for blood" come in when the goat did not loose any blood?
IMO would train the dog and never let it near the goats when you are not around.
Never chain your dog especially if you have children. Those dogs led sad and stressful lives and they have attributed to the most dog attacks as well as more that 50 percent of all deaths to people. I read that in a book a few months ago and it was scary and disturbing.
Until you actually know the cause of death I would not blame on any one thing be it your dog or a mountain lion. Something did scare the tar out of the rest and it did kill your goat...but what was it?
I would really start serious and consistant training if you want to keep her and do not let her near the goats if humas are not around.

Feral what has happened to you is truly horrible and I can understand why you have zero tolerance at your place.

[Feral Nature]

We all handle things our own way. A dog out here is shot if it kills it's own stock. My pyrs would not harm a baby chick, there are baby chicks everywhere and the dogs have never killed one. I have never had to shoot a pyr for killing or harming livestock...my own catahoula, yes. And a golden retriever I wish I had not been such a softy on....came back and killed again and again before the owner did something about it (years ago before I toughened my own laws, I should have shot it on the spot but was too "nice").

I'm not ruling out a cougar, jusy highly suspect dogs because of past bad experiences.

[kerrinatoz]

So now that its been brought up about dogs and goats/chickens. i have to ask, if you have a pet dog, not a farm dog, so it stays in the house, walks on a leash etc. And it shows that "ratting" behavior. So runs after small animals like squirrels, cats, etc. but has never actually hurt one of them, can a dog liek this be trained at least so is he gets out by accident, he won't do harm. has anyone had any luck this way. We have keeshond that we had before the farm, and so far he has run after the goats twice. luckily I was there both times and was able to discourage the behavior.Of course my worry is him running down the goats and giving them a heartattack. These dogs have been raised around LGD (not mine). I don;t ever expect him to do farm work with me unfortuneatly but can he be trusted in time??

Kerrin

[devdragon33]

ok here's my dog situation, we have always had two dogs at a time seems to be the natural balance here, one of the two dogs we had insisted on killing the chickens everytime we weren't looking. she was sweet and a good dog buit just couldn't be trusted. So unlike her counterpart she wasn't allowed out there without supervision, then she got mad about that and made a mess in the house, previously she had been house broken, after a while we gave up she wanted to do what she wanted to do and was willing to wait till we weren't around to do it the last straw was snapping at my child because she fell near her not on her , we had her put down we just couldn't trust her and trying to teach her meant teaching her to get sneakier. Her counterpart accepted the training well and can be left out with chickens,goats anything whether we are home are not. matter of fact we leave her out if we want them guarded knowing I could count heads when we get back and she would proudly wait for us to get done counting (she knew we would check). the good dog is bloodhound- beagle the one that flunked collie-beagle. the bloodhound girl is seven now so we got her a trainee rottweiler-german sheperd, both parents are pure and she is now eight months old past her first heat and as trustworthy as our old lady dog, she goes in with the goats when we go to town as she gets carsick and can't ride.Anyways point is they are like people each one diffrent no matter the breed but if you can't trust them they are better off somwhere else trained for something else away from something they aren't suited for.

[chris30523]

I have two Blue Heelers and goats.I would not trust my dogs with my goats alone.They tried to "help" one doe put her head back through the fence and almost killed her.It was not the blood but the way the goat cried that set them off.I now have electric fence and mesh fence.They will help move the goats from one pasture to the other and are very good when they are working .But a frightened screaming goat brings out the worst in them.I have yet to see them kill anything without drawing blood though. They eat anything they kill too no matter how nasty (skunk,rat,groundhog)

[goatkid]

I would never have blue heelers around my goats. The hotel a half mile down the road has a blue heeler aussie cross who is absolutely horrid with any animals other than dogs. It has to be the heeler blood because I have a border collie aussie cross and my friends have aussies and they are all good with goats so long as they are supervised. Thank God the hotel people are really good about keeping their dog on leash whenever she is outdoors.