Kinder vs. Mini-Nubian

[ailsaek]

Is there a difference? If so, what is it? And, if what I want is a couple of small goats to produce milk, do I want these or Nigerian Dwarves or some other mini?

[pookshollow]

I believe (and I could be wrong!) that Kinders are a Nubian/Pygmy cross and mini-Nubians would be a Nubian/Nigerian Dwarf cross. So, again guessing, the Kinders would be more of a meat-type goat, but I think I've heard that they milk pretty well, and the minis would be more dairy.

I'm hoping that I've got some mini-Saanens on the way - should be interesting!

[HazyDay]

Kinders are just a male pigmy and a female nubian. If the mother is a pigmy then all you have is a mixed bred and is just a % nubian. Not a kinder. Yea but it's the same. The Kinder assc. doesn't take this cross.

I mini nubian would be as pookshallow said. Or could just be a cross thats not a Kinder.

If your looking for milk go either but a full sized doe is what I like. More milk and I don't believe this saying of 3 minis eat as much as 1 full sized doe. I have seen some very big eater pigmys!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

You want to hand milk any of them before you buy. If you want milk than go with the cross of Nigerian/Nubian...if you want more meat than milk than go with the cross of pygmy/nubian. Neither of which will bring you the money that Nubians would or Nigerian without the other cross, or more milk than the Nubian.

But if you are set on a mini-cross-breed, do not buy anything until you milk it. Their teats are tiny, most kids are dam raised wild, their milk supplies vary a great deal in the breed. If you are going to try kids, than milk the dam...most mini breeders and nigerian folks let their kids nurse and use milking machines, one look at the teats will tell you why. Do your homework and make a wise decision based on your area and what you think you could sell kids out of, your biggest concern after you pick a breed to buy is health, don't buy anything until you know about CAE and CL...remember you have to deal with this doe everyday twice a day until you stop milking or get sick of her and sell her...make a wise decision. Vicki

[ailsaek]

*nod* Nigerians are very popular around here, and they'd certainly be the easiest to acquire, and possibly the easiest to sell. I was just considering other options.

[Freeholder]

The teat size on a Kinder depends on what the breeder is breeding for. I have a doe with nice large hand-sized teats, and one with smaller but still very easy to milk teats. Then I have one, a first generation cross, who has a lovely udder and tiny little teats. A milking machine would be nice for her!

To clear up a bit of misinformation, Kinders can come from either a cross of a registered Pygmy buck and a registered Nubian doe, OR a cross of a Pygmy doe and a Nubian buck (still both registered). It's registerable either way, but usually people use a Nubian doe because it's possible that the kids would be too large for a Pygmy doe to deliver.

Some Kinder does *average* 8 lbs. plus a day for ten months. (I don't have one of those -- yet. I have a yearling FF who may get there in another year or so, though.) Harvey Considine, after examining some Kinder does, told the breeders that any goat that milked that well was a dairy goat. However, they make up for less volume with exceptionally high milk quality. Butterfat and milk solids are double or more that of standard sized goats, making cheese yields from a gallon of milk 2 to 2 1/2 lbs, rather than the 1 lb. you'd get from a gallon of milk from a large-breed doe. If you have a small amount of land, or a smaller animal is physically easier for you to handle, then the small breeds are a perfectly acceptable and useful goat. Two or three of them will give as much milk as most families can use, and it's milk of excellent quality. And their multitude of kids are muscled enough to be worth raising for meat. (And they do have multitudes of kids -- triplets and quads are common, and they've been known to have as many as seven that all lived.)

As far as the differences between Mini-Nubians and Kinders, as someone posted above, all the mini breeds come from crossing Nigerian Dwarfs with a large breed dairy goat. (Hmm. I'd be curious to see what came of a cross of Pygmy on Boer, for a 'mini' meat goat!) So the mini-breeds would be pretty much straight dairy; because of the Nigie ancestry I believe their milk should be almost as rich as the Kinder milk.

Another misconception should be cleared up: I don't know about Nigerian Dwarfs (I haven't seen a Nigie that I would want to milk), but most Kinder breeders that I know don't leave babies to be dam-raised unless they have a FF with small teats. I certainly don't; nearly all my kids are bottle-raised, and are friendly. None of my does are wild, not even the one dam-raised one that I have. I milk all my does by hand, as do the two ladies I've bought Kinders from, so we are all breeding for good-sized teats, and easy-milking does. I'll wait and see, on the yearling with tiny teats, if her teats get better next year -- because otherwise she has one of the nicest udders I've ever seen (and no wonder -- her mother was a Grand Champion Nubian doe). I'm going to give a try at getting the udder into my other lines, but improving on her teats -- and that's what breeding is all about, strengthening the weak areas of your animals.

You know, the large breed goats have the major place in goat-keeping, and probably always will. But the small breeds have some advantages in some situations that are very pronounced. Speaking only for Kinders here, because that's what I'm familiar with, they are much easier keepers than any of the large breeds of goats I've raised (and I've had most of them). Their milk quality is head and shoulders above any of the others, even the Nubians (and I've had several very nice Nubian does) -- and this is inarguable fact; anyone who questions it has only to go to the KGBA website and look at the posted milk records. They do eat less than a large-breed doe, though I'm not sure where anyone got the idea that they only eat 1/3 as much. I think the figure I've seen was 2/3 as much, and that's probably about right, given their size. They are easier to handle, because of their small size, and yet they are large enough to fit a milk pail underneath them (not always true of Nigies). The claims for their dress-out percentage made on the website appear to be true, from the few Kinders I've butchered so far. A few Kinder does could produce quite a few pounds of meat in a year's time, with their propensity for having litters. They seem to be fairly long-lived, healthy, sound, vigorous animals. And the temperament is good, though they can be as noisy as their Nubian ancestors!

I suppose I always sound like an ad for Kinder goats, but I really, really like them, and have found the claims made for them to be true. Six or seven years ago(when I was still in NH on 14 acres), I looked into them a bit when I first heard of them, and opted, on Vicki's advice, to get Nubians instead. Nubians are good goats. But for me (with a bad back) on this place (only one acre), smaller goats are a better choice. Having had Kinders as well as nearly all of the large breeds, I can honestly say that even if we had more land, I would still keep Kinders. Do I make a lot of money with them? No. I make enough selling goats to help with the feed bill, though, and that's enough. Mainly I'm after milk and meat for our own use.

Kathleen

[ailsaek]

Kathleen, is that one acre including the land the house is on? How many Kinders are you raising there? This is really making me hopeful that I will actually be able to do this.

[radar]

I acquired several Kinder goats last year from a very good breeder in Missouri, Bramble Patch Kinders and now have 7 kids (5 girls and 2 boys). I have been milking the two FF for about a week now in the morning and am finding that they are pretty easy to milk especially considering they are FFs. My friend who has ND's and tried milking them said mine were considerably better designed for hand milking. So far I'm getting about 1 quart per goat with just the AM milkings. The kids are with them the rest of the day and are separated in the evening. The milk has tasted great, lots of butterfat, and I just started my first batch of cheese with it so I'll find out what kind of yields I get. The third doe has a huge udder and great hand milking sized teats. This is her third kidding and she had triplets this time and has been raising them herself. I'm looking forward to starting to milk her in the next couple of days. Her breeder was getting a gallon a day from her last year. Before I got these guys, my last experience with goats was from when I was a kid and we had Toggs. I really appreciate the smaller size, they are very easy to handle and contain. If we have extra wethers, we will be butchering them this fall and I think I'll be happy with the carcass size. As far as feed goes, again my friend with standard goats is going through alot more hay than I am. I bought 60 light bales in the November and still have 20 or so left. Although my kids are dam raised, I'm finding they are friendly, after all I make a great perch and a warm place to cuddle. I do find I have to be sure and spend plenty of time with them to keep them socialized. One word of caution with selling ND's, they aren't as easy to sell as you might expect. Again, friends with ND's from registered goats have taken over 6 months to sell them and not at the prices they were led to believe by the breeder. So anyhow, for our purposes of easy to contain goats on small acreage for home milk production I think we made a good choice.

Alison
Orleans, MA

[Freeholder]

Originally Posted by ailsaek

Kathleen, is that one acre including the land the house is on? How many Kinders are you raising there? This is really making me hopeful that I will actually be able to do this.

We only have 1.1 acres, total, including house, driveway, garden, etc. The goats are penned, and their feed brought to them, though I do take them out for walks once in a while and let them browse a bit. At present, I have thirteen goats total, including kids. I'm planning to butcher two tomorrow, so will be down to eleven -- four does in milk, two doe kids that I want to keep until I see how they are going to turn out, three Kinder bucklings who will stay around long enough to breed the does this fall and then go into the freezer, and my Oberhasli buck and his 3/4 Ober son (soon to be a wether, for packing). One of the does in milk is also a 3/4 Ober daughter of the Ober buck. So, while most of my goats are Kinders, not all of them are.

Even if we only had half an acre, I would still be able to keep a couple of goats, though I wouldn't try to keep more than two, and definitely no bucks. I'd like to sell the Ober buck, but right now have a couple of people who want to use him for breeding, and am making some trades for his stud fees, so he's still earning his keep. And, he's gentle and good-tempered enough to use him for packing as long as he's not in rut (and then the only issue is the stink).

Kathleen

[Freeholder]

Originally Posted by radar

I acquired several Kinder goats last year from a very good breeder in Missouri, Bramble Patch Kinders and now have 7 kids (5 girls and 2 boys). I have been milking the two FF for about a week now in the morning and am finding that they are pretty easy to milk especially considering they are FFs. My friend who has ND's and tried milking them said mine were considerably better designed for hand milking. So far I'm getting about 1 quart per goat with just the AM milkings. The kids are with them the rest of the day and are separated in the evening. The milk has tasted great, lots of butterfat, and I just started my first batch of cheese with it so I'll find out what kind of yields I get. The third doe has a huge udder and great hand milking sized teats. This is her third kidding and she had triplets this time and has been raising them herself. I'm looking forward to starting to milk her in the next couple of days. Her breeder was getting a gallon a day from her last year. Before I got these guys, my last experience with goats was from when I was a kid and we had Toggs. I really appreciate the smaller size, they are very easy to handle and contain. If we have extra wethers, we will be butchering them this fall and I think I'll be happy with the carcass size. As far as feed goes, again my friend with standard goats is going through alot more hay than I am. I bought 60 light bales in the November and still have 20 or so left. Although my kids are dam raised, I'm finding they are friendly, after all I make a great perch and a warm place to cuddle. I do find I have to be sure and spend plenty of time with them to keep them socialized. One word of caution with selling ND's, they aren't as easy to sell as you might expect. Again, friends with ND's from registered goats have taken over 6 months to sell them and not at the prices they were led to believe by the breeder. So anyhow, for our purposes of easy to contain goats on small acreage for home milk production I think we made a good choice.

Alison
Orleans, MA

Alison, I think you made a good choice, too -- from everything I've seen and heard, Bramble Patch Kinders has some really nice animals.

Kathleen

[MamaDee]

I acquired several Kinder goats last year from a very good breeder in Missouri, Bramble Patch Kinders and now have 7 kids (5 girls and 2 boys).>>>>

We may have some goat ancestry in common. My Luna's Mom, Trina, came from Bramble Patch, as did her grandpa, Derby and Grandma Kaffee.

Also my Pickle's dad Turnbuckle, and grandpa Shinook and grandma Ebony (supposedly a star milker) all came from there, too. Anyway.......

I, too, have been pleased with Kinders. I have to say, we were used to Nubian milk--which I thought was fine. But after my first taste of Kinder milk I was hooked! Wow! Yummmmmmmm!

I would like to know more about breeding for good traits, also. As far as milking--Luna is easy--except she is a brat when she thinks she's done. But we just got her and she is settling in a bit. Pickles is a patient angel. But her teats are smaller. Much harder for me to milk. So....should I not breed Pickles? After a couple of kiddings might her teats get bigger? Are there any tricks to milking a doe with small teats? I do o.k. after she gets going, but beginning and ending I squirt milk all over the place. I can't seem to keep my pinkie out of the way. I would assume the Nigies would be the same way?

I agree that the smaller size is nice--although the two I have aren't that much smaller than my Nubians.

Good luck with your choice. I don't know about Nigie milk, but for me Kinder beats anything I've tasted.

Dee

[cnsranch]

Aggressive so excited to see all the good things said abt kinders I angling to start raising them, Have a reg. Nubian doe due to kid in afew. Weeks she will be a ff but her first kids will be mini. Nubian. I have also aquired a very nice reg. Pigmy Buck..doing thank you all for getting me even more excited!! My plan. Is to keep 2 does and a buck, sell and butcher everything else.

[cnsranch]

Sorry for all the typos I am posting with stupid smart phone lol

[cnsranch]

Wow!also didnt realize what an old post this is.

[LFRJ]

Thank you Blue Juniper, for your very educational post.

I'm a Kinder owner.

But I could have been a very disappointed "mini" or "nigi" owner since - while we were researching for goats that might fit us - Nigerians were at the top of the list for a very short while. Fortunately, we were educated before we bought.

My hackles go up every time I hear of a member buying a nigi to produce yet another strain of mini-whatever. We could have so easily been duped by a backyard breeder with a fine specimen of this crossed over a fine specimen of that.

Not all Nigi or crosses are bad.
Not all mini's are bad.
Research before you buy!

I refuse to stand up for Kinders altogether over Nigis. Ain't a hill I'm wiling to die on today.

We have a terrific Kinder doe! We're lucky. We were able to purchase from the original breeder.
Our Kinder is two years past freshening and still gives me 1 pint per day.

Best difference I can project is that the Kinder line should still adhere to the original dual purpose mission: Good milker, meaty offspring - and I would encourage any Kinder owner/breeder to acknowledge this mission.

I would expect that a mini nubian would/should focus specifically on milk production / udder performance and disregard meat output. Kinders differ this way as there is the added emphasis on meat production..

I, personally, am forever suspect of the word "mini".
(but will admit - they're darn cute!)

[Backfourty,MI.]

I would decide what your main purpose is for having the goats, decide on a breed based on that. Then start checking breeders, teat size, conformation, if they hand milk & yes like Vicki said I would milk them first.

I Love the mini nubians. We have some now, good teat size & yes I hand milk them. The one's we have now are not registered & so we are switching to registered mini nubians. I made sure to buy from disease tested herds & all the breeders I'm buying from hand milk their goats.

[cnsranch]

Thank you both for your input, that is my goal is to raise dual purpose goats so i dont end upwith a bunch I can't sell ,I have not found any breeders here in north Idaho although my good friend traveled a ways and picked up a couple of little does that haven't been bred yet.

[Alice In TX/MO]

If you want goats to sell, you need to get meat goats, and ONLY if you have a guaranteed market, such as a buying station or a large Hispanic community.