urinary calculi

[mary,tx]

I brought home two pretty boer bucks from the auction yesterday, maybe 2 months old. They are disbudded, a rarity for boers here. I spoke with the old lady selling them, who said she only sold them because they are TOO tame and would always follow her up into the yard.

I thought I had a pretty good deal until I started watching them strain to pee, and nothing comes out.

I'm not here to get the "don't buy at auction" lecture, or to find out about the surgery to fix it.

I've never dealt with this before, and am wondering if there is anything I can do at home to help them resolve this problem.

thanks,
mary

[dk_40207]

amonium cholride ? Did I get that right? Call some of the feed stores in your area to see if they carry it. If they mix a goat feed--odds are they do. It is very cheap(like under $1/lb). We had this problem with a buck that we got. We mixed it in a tiny bit of water and basically drenched him w/ it. You need to shake a tail feather if they actually can't go!

[Sher]

Hey Mary..sorry about the bucks. We used the DL Methionine treatment. Our tablets were 500 mg. We were to give 2 tablets per 50 lbs. I ground em up mixed with a little water and used a syringe..no needle..to get it into him.

I also took down vinegar water in an ice cream bucket and a towel..I soaked the towel and held it on his private part..really soaked it good..and messaged it, starting back quite a ways.

I want to say I gave him a B-complex shot and I also gave him a shot for pain.

Keep in mind...mine was a seven/eight year old wether. But I'm telling you..within a few minutes of taking that DL Methionine...he was starting to dribble.

But be quick Mary. And I for one think this could happen no matter where ya bought the buck. If they are on grain..there's always the chance.

Keep us updated.

Just an after thought Mary...if you are time restricted and don't think he is going to make it much longer...the thing you really want to do is change is PH. That is what the vinegar is doing on the soaks..and that is what the DL Methionine is doing from the inside. So anything that changes his PH will help him in a crisis. Just my opinion. Cause you are trying to get those crystals to soften up or break up or dissolve.

[mary,tx]

Thank you both for the replies and advice. I've heard of ammonia(sp?)chloride, but didn't know if it would help at this stage. Do you know how much is appropriate to give?

I have not heard of the DL Methionine. Is that something I can pick up at the feed store, or is it script?

Are these things I can just give them in a bottle?

My thought in getting them was really to have somthing to put my extra milk into. They are taking bottles and are grazing this morning, and are off feed.

The good news is I was seeing dribbles this morning, although they are both still straining, and I didn't see much at all from one of them.

mary

[fishhead]

One poster said she used ACE (acepromazine) to help reduce the pain and help her buck relax to increase urine flow. You'll have to do a search for the thread containing that information. It's a prescription drug.

[Sher]

Hi Mary..sorry I was away from the puter. The DL Methionine is more like a mineral persay..you get it from the vet. I used to take L Methionine..got it in the health stores.

I would love to help you on the other stuff..but I have never used it. And since this stuff worked sooo fast and sooo good..I think I will be sticking with it.

Fishhead is right ..I used ACE and I used a muscle relaxant on Red..but he is much much older and weights a ton..lol. I don't think I would use either on your wee ones..as I used a very scant amount on Red and I wouldn't even have a guess at how you would get such a small amount in those two month olds with out killing them.

Did you try the vinegar soaks? And the message? That really helped too. If they continue to dribble..you still have time..its when they stop that altogether that you will be in trouble.

Red actually had fluid build up on his underside..all along his belly..back to his rear flanks. He couldn't pee a drop.

Keep at it Mary..if you can get them softened..they will probably start peeing. Good luck!

[mary,tx]

Oh dear. I may be having more trouble with the bigger of the two, then, the one I didn't notice had the problem at the start. I did notice that his underbelly was nasty, and have not seen him pee more than a drop, although he isn't as demonstrative in straining as the other. He grinds his teeth, which I think cannot be a good sign.

I put a little AC in their midday bottles, but they seemed to be able to tell the difference, and didn't drink it as well. I'll try again this evening, and try the vinegar soak on "Ernie".

I guess if they are not remarkably improved by Monday, I will call the vet about the DL Methionine.

thanks again,
mary

[henfruit]

grain will do this to weathers.i just changed mine to goat finsher it has amon. nitrae in it to help prevent this. good luck i hope they get well.

[squeakers girl]

As a preventative could you start adding Apple Cider Vinegar to their grain and water?

[Feral Nature]

Sorry about your Boers.

If the problem is not resolved fairly quickly, the bladder will rupture. Grinding the teeth indicates pain. I have not had one with this problem so have no first hand advice.

I do not feed ANY grain or grain products to my bucks or wethers whatsoever to help avoid this problem. Mine get hay and alfalfa pellets only, a good loose goat mineral which i keep dry and fresh to encourage consumption. Fresh water all the time. Male goats need to drink alot to keep things flushed.

Many goat breeders do use feed with AC in it.

[mary,tx]

They were both peeing a little tonight. Though not as much as I'd like to see, I am feeling somewhat encouraged. They otherwise are lively and act healthy enough. When we fed the girls tonight, they came back over to the doe barn and followed us around trying to get some grain.
But I have plenty of milk and plenty of graze for them.

[Sher]

Sounds encouraging Mary. Hang in there and keep working on them. I wonder..do you think putting a 1/2 teaspoon of vinegar and 1/2 teaspoon of honey or sugar in the bottle would work? The vinegar would help the ph and the sugar or honey would maybe help them to take it. ( Don't put it in milk .. just water or you'll have sour milk.)

Two months old is so young..the teeth grinding is a sign of pain..do you have any pain meds on hand? It would be a very minute dose..but you might try it on the one grinding his teeth.

If you are getting a dribble now..that is really encouraging. I just don't let the males .. buck or wether..have grain. Red got it from a hay change I think. But really..since he was young like yours..he had a different way of peeing. He would really have to think about it and then he would pee. I have't noticed him doing it since he had his "episode".

Blessings..

[white eagle]

GL on your boys and keep us posted on how they are doing. My boys get medicated goat pellets that has the med in it

[COSunflower]

I had to put down one of my male goats and 2 different male cats because of the same problem. The vet here said it was because of the high mineral content in our water here. After spending so much money, time, and emotions trying to fix the problem and then in the end have to euthanize - I just don't obtain any more male animals. It's VERY painful to them and heart breaking to lose a pet that you love.

[Sher]

Oh my gosh Mary...I should have said vinegar and sugar/honey into water..not milk..lol..it would sour it! I shouldn't post late at night!

[fishhead]

Glad to hear they are peeing a little.

I would not "ask" them if they wanted to drink the ammonium chloride. I would syringe it (without the needle) into their mouth unless there is a caution not to do that.

Sher, what dosage of ACE did you use? I thought it was like 500 mg. My dog has 10 mg pills for thunderstorms.

[Sher]

Fishhead..the ACE I have is liquid. The dose was 0.9 cc for Red. He is at least a 250 lb wether. Like I say..I don't know how that works out for a little 2 month old buck..and I don't want to be responsible for him succombing from an overdose.

Its the same with the muscle relaxer. I have no idea what dose. I do suspect that a muscle relaxer/pain killer would actually help him pass some of the grit. It sure did help Red. But so did the messaging..to work stuff along..and so did the vinegar soak.

To be real honest though..That DL Methionine started Red dribbling within minutes. I had never heard of the stuff being used on animals for this. But a vet that was "filling" in for a vet whom I don't care for..gave me this treatment. I was desperate..and it worked out.

But I would be very very cautious on pain meds that small. I am guessing Vicki or Emily would have experience with medicating the wee ones for pain..I think I would call or email one or both of them.

[mary,tx]

Originally Posted by fishhead

Glad to hear they are peeing a little.

I would not "ask" them if they wanted to drink the ammonium chloride. I would syringe it (without the needle) into their mouth unless there is a caution not to do that.

I did just that this morning, mixing it with water and a little molasses first.
They seem to be very much improved. They both peed a puddle this morning, and I have to tell y'all, I never thought I'd be so happy to see goats pee.

I want to thank you all for your encouragement and advice, which has made this a good learning experience for me, as opposed to the really big disappointment it otherwise might have been.

mary

[fishhead]

Watching goats poop and pee seems to come with the ownership manual. I've even started watching my dog too. He's starting to develop a complex.

Since ACE is a prescription med I would think the vet could determine the safe dosage. I wouldn't want to do any prescribing either.