Understanding ADGA appraisals and fining the right buck

[wildhorse]

Help I'm all to new to goats. How do they evaluate conformation? How do I find the right buck? I just bought my girl for a family milker but would like to be able to improve on any weak areas jesse has. Please don't laugh but what does it mean when you see the letters EEEE etc? I am trying to learn. Do I base breeding plans on her appraisel or her sire or just her?


this is her sire

YIELD
Breed Herds Daus Lacts Rel Milk Fat Fat% Prot Prot% Pctile
N 3 13 22 60 39 8.5 0.34 3.2 0.09 89

TYPE
Born States Herds Daus Appraisals Avg FS PTA% Rel
3/15/2001 2 3 13 19 85.1 -1.0 66

YIELD
Breed Herds Daus Lacts Rel Milk Fat Fat% Prot Prot% Pctile
N 3 13 22 60 39 8.5 0.34 3.2 0.09 89

TYPE
Born States Herds Daus Appraisals Avg FS PTA% Rel
3/15/2001 2 3 13 19 85.1 -1.0 66

TYPE DETAILS
Trait AVG FS Ideal Visual PTA PTA REL
Stature 25.8 Short Tall 4.0 77
Strength 25.9 27-33 Weak Powerful 0.5 68
Dairyness 31.7 33-38 Coarse Dairy -0.2 65
Rear Legs, Side 29.6 25-30 Posty Angled -0.5 63
Rump Angle 30.2 30-35 Steep Level 1.3 70
Rump Width 26 30-35 Narrow Wide -0.8 69
Fore Udder Attachment 32.6 35-42 Loose Tight -1.3 65
Rear Udder Height 34 40-45 Low High -3.0 66
Rear Udder Arch 20.8 32-40 Narrow Wide -3.0 61
Udder Depth 32.8 22-27 Deep Shallow -0.6 66
Suspensory Ligament 24.2 28-32 Weak Strong 0.7 69
Teat Placement, Rear 18.1 25-30 Wide Close 1.8 71
Teat Diameter 17 18-28 Narrow Wide -0.8 71

[AnnaS]

A great book to learn good (and bad) goat conformation is "Dairy Goat Judging Techniques". The goat supply catalogues carry it and some libraries can get it via inter-library loan.

The four letters express how close to ideal the doe is in four areas. First is general appearance, second letter is for dairy character, second is body capacity, and fourth is udder. The doe also gets an overall number & letter score on the same scale.

E for excellent is the highest grade- 90% or higher of ideal
V or VG for very good 85%- 89%
+ for Good plus 80% - 84%
A for acceptable 70%-79%
F for fair 60-69%
P for poor- less than 60%

So an EEEE would be the highest possible score.

The linear traits- the ones listed as "type details"- are scored on a numerical scale instead of letters. The numbers show where a doe falls in a scale from 1 to 50. The scale represents the possible extremes on either end- for example, udder depth of 1 would be a udder floor almost touching the ground, where udder depth of 50 would be like a dry yearling, just a bump and two teats. The ideals usually fall in between.
You really need to see pictures. Descriptions just don't do it. You can get the illustrated Linear Appraisal Booklet from ADGA for $3.

I base my breedings on the doe's evaluation & production, not on her parents scores or other relatives. With doelings, I'll look at the dam & paternal sisters to guess what the doeling will need.

The Trait PTAs show how likely a buck is to pass on a specific trait score to a daughter. a - PTA means his daughters are all over the scale; a +1.5 or higher means he is very likely to pass on that trait, good or bad.

[wildhorse]

AnnaS thank you so much Im going to register with AGDA but it sure helps to be able to talk to someone that knows the ropes.

[chamoisee]

Sigh.....what you need to realize is that not everyone is going to have the same ideals, and what perfect buck for someone else might be the worst buck possible for yours. The evaluation scores echo this somewhat. A perfect score doesn't necessarily reflect a perfect buck or animal, if it did, each breed could get by with just one or two bucks, using A.I.

What I did was to look at my herd, not just on one day, but on a daily basis, criticizing them, evaluating their strengths, deciding what I like/don't like, want/don't want. Then I went in, looked at the Linear Appraisal scales, read the booklet (you can get it from ADGA, it has pictures of what animals showing various scores might look like for each trait), and decided what my personal ideals for each trait were. Some of the traits were non-issues for me since my does were average in them, or I flat out didn't care, and other traits that mattered a LOT to me weren't being addressed at all. I made up a chart of the traits for which there was data and for which I had an ideal range, and made a chart. I photocopied that chart a lot of times (20-30 copies). Then I went out to the barn and looked at my animals again, and using a chart for each doe, I mapped where she was on that chart, and highlighted the traits where she was string (one color) and where she need improvement (a different color). Having done this with all the does, I went back inside and compared the charts. I got rid of the does who had more areas needing improvment than I could cope with, or who were really bad in more than 1 area, or who had a single glaring fault that the other does did not and no significant strengths that I needed badly. I decided on one or two traits (that were important to me) that most of the does needed improvement in, and selected a buck based on that. No buck is perfect, you have to work for improvement one fault at a time. This worked very well for me. I selected my A.I. breedings the same way.

If someone tells you that they have the perfect buck for you, knowing nothign at all about your herd, or because he was perfect for them, run the other way or hang up the phone.

[moonspinner]

I also can't stress enough how important it is that your bucks cross well with your does. You could have the highest rated, most gorgeous buck on the planet but he may not match up with your does to throw what you're looking for. When you get that cross you want it is so rewarding. I just had a doe produce twins out of a new buck that I'm so excited about, because they were the closest to the traits I want to breed for. Yet this buck bred to my other top doe threw nice kids, but nowhere near the first doe's. It's so important if you care about quality and your program's direction to cull any kids/animals that simply aren't producing what you're after.
But in general, you always want a buck who can consistently put on strong traits: sound conformation, great blending, super udders and longevity.

[AnnaS]

Another great way to learn about type is to go to sanctioned dairy goat shows, watch the animals, and listen to the judge's reasons. Unlike dog & horse shows, the judge has to tell the audience & showers WHY the first doe is better than the second and so on.

Just like great art, type is something that has to be seen to really be appreciated. A photo just doesn't do justice to the rump and udder of a 93 doe.

[chamoisee]

Oh...I forgot. YOu do know that there is a website where you can not only view the type and production data for any goat that has them, but also run searches based on bucks with high scores in the areas you want to improve?

What you want is a buck who consistently throws improvement in a trait in a lot of daughters, not just 5-10. Almost any animal, bred to a slightly better one (or just out of sheer luck) can throw a single nice looking offspring. Don't be fooled by one nice son or prizewinning daughter. It would be better to use a buck whose daughters are not necessarily National Show winners, but are consistent, than a one time sire of the National Grand Champion, who has no other offspring that anyone has ever heard of anywhere (assuming he didn't die young or something).

[ailsaek]

Originally Posted by chamoisee

Oh...I forgot. YOu do know that there is a website where you can not only view the type and production data for any goat that has them, but also run searches based on bucks with high scores in the areas you want to improve?

Dunno if the OP does or not, but I sure didn't. Do tell? It'd be a public service.

[NewlandNubians]

Reading the data: Would be easier for you to understand perhaps if you had someone to walk you through it in person with a goat in front of you and some appraisal data on that goat handy. It's not the easiest to type out over the computer and explain without having a goat there to point things out on. You are welcomed to come up here to my place for a lesson if you want, I have no idea how far I am from you but if you want come up. I have goats and appraisal scores and I have a friend 20 minutes from here with lamanchas and appraisal scores on her goats for a different look at things which helps a lot I've found. Heck you can even bring your doe if you want.

Not being mean but what you posted isn't going to get you any help if you really want help picking out a buck. Why don't you just post the doe's name so we can look at her pedigree on missdee's adga genetics? Then maybe someone could point you to some ideas of who to pick for a sire. Of course this would be only based on pedigree and not looking at your doe's individual flaws and strengths. Putting her sire's data on here is nice but she might not be anything like her sire.

You ought to just relax about picking a perfect buck. It don't exist anyways. Everyone has their opinion and if you ask you'll get just that - not a representation of what YOU want.

Appraisers are just people too and I would not totally put all my stock in their opinion. There's a lot more to breeding than just what an appraiser marks on a sheet.

[NewlandNubians]

Oh yes, and regards to shows, when the judges give their reasons, you can take a grain of salt with that too. I've heard some outright made up things said at shows by judges. I've seen a judge look at dry yearlings and put the ones last with crooked teeth and everyone knows that the yearlings are getting in their permanent teeth then. And the guidebook says nothing of crooked teeth being a fault. I've seen a far-sighted judge make us lead the goats far away so he/she could see the goats to judge them. How that judge could see the finer points I don't know. I've seen Nubians with almost erect ears win champion.

On the bright side I've seen a few excellent judges I've really liked too. My personal favorites are Ricky Stonebeck and Dr. Joan Dean Rowe. There are many more I really like and I think are fair. Then there are some that are terrible political. My least favorite of all.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I've seen Nubians with almost erect ears win champion.
..................

Not in Texas. And being a Nubian breeder I would question the judge and ask the exhibitor who registered this disqualified doe. We have a strong show circuit here and good judges...last year at one show no Obies of one age were even given first place so none would be in the GCH lineup, the judge thought they all were that bad and said so over the microphone...no ethical judge will let a doe go on to earn a leg who is not worthy. Especially with a breed disqualification. I wish the judges would excuse the ring after placing top 10...who wants to hear the reason your doe is 17th over 18th!

Wildhorse, your best bet is to have a mentor in your breed, someone who has bred your bloodline or type of doe for many years...see how they got to where they are by looking up the bloodlines at ADGA.org under genetics. Understanding type is key in Nubians, and trying to understand all the genetic type yeild in the beginning, especially because in most breeds there is few herds on test and fewer herds appraised, it does come down to personal perference. I breed a very different package in Nubians than some do...I am not all about rear udder...it is nice to have a rear udder, but she had better have dairy character, breed character, body capacity to go along with all that udder points. And added up my 3 catagories I excel in equal more than the mammary catagory still....thank god! Because does with E mammareis attached to poor feet and legs or poor heads don't live here. vicki

[NewlandNubians]

The judge I saw put the doe CH who had the almost erect ears was from either new mexico or arizona, I can't remember which.