LIne Breeding and milk volume

[ahahahni1]

I have two questions. Is it safe to line breed and is there a point that it would not be good to line breed say siblings or etc. I have three does and one billy. The billy is one of he nannies sons. The nannies are not related to one another.


Other question... How can I increase my goats milk volume. She was giving a quart at each milking and now the past two days she only gives 2 cups at each milking. We have had some heavy rains continuously for the past few days. Do you think that could have something to do with it? Maybe not eating as much or depressed?

[manygoatsnmore]

First, let's use the proper terminology for your goats. The females are does, and the male is a buck. A castrated male is a wether. Since you can't tell tone of voice in a post, I want to say that I'm not saying this in a "mean" voice, just a "teaching" voice.

Now, line breeding can be a very good thing, or a bad thing, depending on the quality of the animals. Line breeding is used in almost every successful breeding program that I know of. By breeding father to daughter, mother to son, I fix (strengthen) the good traits exhibited by the sire or dam. For example, if I know that the buck tends to improve the udders on his dtrs, I might breed a dtr back to him to add a double dose of this improvement in udder size/shape/milkiness. However, I also can strengthen the bad traits, so I have to be careful. I'm not going to breed a buck with cow hocks to a daughter already displaying this trait from him. I'll end up with a poor set of leg that is fixed in the bloodline, and more likely to be passed down to future offspring.

That being said, you never want to breed to a buck that is not better than your does. You cannot improve your stock by doing this. Any male not truly a wonderful specimen of the breed should be wethered and used as a pet, brush goat or meat. If your goal is a high-milking doe, you must breed to a buck that will improve the doe's offspring's milking ability. Also, breeding a first freshener to a buck from heavy milking lines can influence the doe's ability to milk, not just the offspring's ability. So, it's really important to use a really good buck.

For your other question: How long has your doe been in milk? What breed is she? What area of the country (or world) are you in? Is there a chance she could be in heat? My does drop in production when they are in heat. Have there been any changes other than the rain? Is your doe primarily on pasture/browse, where she would be eating less during rainy days? Do you supplement with hay, grain, etc? What kind and how much? How does the doe look? Is she off her feed? Is she up to date on worming (fecals okay, or is she wormy), and how do her stools look? What's her temp? Any sniffles, runny nose or coughing? Lots of things can affect the milk output, and we need more info to give you a possible answer.

[CountryHaven]

I'd like to further the teaching post with the fact that 'linebreeding' is an excellent way to continue traits and strengthen the breed group you are working with. While judicious outcrossing to selected other lines to diversify your gene pool as times goes on. HOWEVER... what you are talking about (father/daughter, brother/sister) is NOT linebreeding. Linebreeding is using animals from the same gene pool... cousins, and even sometimes grandsire or great grandsire to ggdaughter, or granddaughter, or grandmother to grandson type of thing.

What you are talking about (father/daughter, brother/sister, mother/son) is technically called INbreeding. THAT is also a very commonly used practice to 'lock in' great traits -- while being aware as said above, that it will also accentuate the bad and bring out bad quality to the forefront. Using such a practice REQUIRES the best stock you can find, and being as sure as you can that what you are breeding is of very good qualtiy... it also requires you to be extreme in your culling method. If you are willing to put the offspring exhibiting bad traits in the freezer so that those traits are eliminated from the gene pool, and also carefully examining which matings produced those bad qualities so that you do NOT repeat that mating, you might come out with fantastic animals as a result from the remaining offspring... or not, they may all be culls. If you just want the buck to freshen the does and plan on all the kids being terminal product then it makes no difference at all. Use the son, mom will freshen and you'll get milk and meat at the same time.

(Edited because I was thinking it was a sibling (brother of the does) then read back and saw it was one of the doe's sons.)

[ahahahni1]

Originally Posted by manygoatsnmore

First, let's use the proper terminology for your goats. The females are does, and the male is a buck. A castrated male is a wether. Since you can't tell tone of voice in a post, I want to say that I'm not saying this in a "mean" voice, just a "teaching" voice.

Now, line breeding can be a very good thing, or a bad thing, depending on the quality of the animals. Line breeding is used in almost every successful breeding program that I know of. By breeding father to daughter, mother to son, I fix (strengthen) the good traits exhibited by the sire or dam. For example, if I know that the buck tends to improve the udders on his dtrs, I might breed a dtr back to him to add a double dose of this improvement in udder size/shape/milkiness. However, I also can strengthen the bad traits, so I have to be careful. I'm not going to breed a buck with cow hocks to a daughter already displaying this trait from him. I'll end up with a poor set of leg that is fixed in the bloodline, and more likely to be passed down to future offspring.

That being said, you never want to breed to a buck that is not better than your does. You cannot improve your stock by doing this. Any male not truly a wonderful specimen of the breed should be wethered and used as a pet, brush goat or meat. If your goal is a high-milking doe, you must breed to a buck that will improve the doe's offspring's milking ability. Also, breeding a first freshener to a buck from heavy milking lines can influence the doe's ability to milk, not just the offspring's ability. So, it's really important to use a really good buck.

For your other question: How long has your doe been in milk? What breed is she? What area of the country (or world) are you in? Is there a chance she could be in heat? My does drop in production when they are in heat. Have there been any changes other than the rain? Is your doe primarily on pasture/browse, where she would be eating less during rainy days? Do you supplement with hay, grain, etc? What kind and how much? How does the doe look? Is she off her feed? Is she up to date on worming (fecals okay, or is she wormy), and how do her stools look? What's her temp? Any sniffles, runny nose or coughing? Lots of things can affect the milk output, and we need more info to give you a possible answer.

I appreciate the "teaching voice" because I really need one. (that is my desperation voice) I am learning here and it seems like my hubby thinks the goats and chickens are mine to do. Sorry about the terminology. It's going to be a bad habit to break but going to try. I adopted these goats as of last Tuesday so I can't answer all of the questions fully. I am not sure how long she has been in milk. She is registered LaMancha. I am in Texas southwest of Ft Worth. Changes are new place but she did give 1 qt at each milking first couple of days. Only past few days have been different. Also we took her baby away to be weaned at a friends house the same day she got here (last Tuesday). She is primarially on pasture except we feed her grain (goat feed) at milking time. She is on a high quality feed we had left over from our show goat we no longer have. We give her one coffee can full twice a day. Yes, she could be eating less during rainy days (this might be my guess on why it lessened). She looks good and acts well and very friendly unless you want to milk her then she is just difficult. But thats normal. No she is not off her feed and eating well otherwise from the rain. She was wormed two months ago the past owner said but she is real skinny so she suggested because of all the rain we have had we might want to worm them again. I am ashamed to say I haven't checked her droppings. She is not sniffling. I thank you for taking the time to answer this for me. I'd really like to have her milk volume back up.

[Oldntimes]

Don't worry, there are many people who refer Does to Nannies and Bucks to Billy's. ALOT of meat goat breeders and "Old Timers",
so your terminology is just fine. You are also correct in calling them Nannies and Billies

[lyceum]

There are a lot of people, especially older breeders (boer and some dairy) that refer to them as billies and nannies. They will not change their terminology no matter how much you use the correct terminology.

Like several people have said, line breeding can be good or bad. We are getting a sable buck kid that his sire's parents are full siblings and the kid turned out to be a great buck. You just have to watch how close you breed and be prepared for any possible outcome (good or bad). If both parents carry a bad gene, that gene could be accentuated in the kid. We don't like to breed very close.

Carisa

[Feral Nature]

Indtroduce this doe to alfalfa pellets and increase them slowly until she is eating all she wants every day and she will increase her milk production....she needs calcium

[manygoatsnmore]

Yes, I would worm her right away, and again in 10 days. Just moving a doe to a new home can drop her production, and if she's thin, she's really pulling on her body's reserves to put milk in the bucket. It may take some time to put the weight back on her and you may or may not see an increase in milk production this lactation. One hint, too, is to keep her (actually all your goats) in a small area during the 2 weeks or so that you will be worming her (them) - an area that the goats are NOT normally going to be on. That way, the worms will be shed into an area where they will not be as likely to be picked up by the goats and reinfest them. You won't get rid of all the worms doing this, but it well really help to lighten the worm load in your herd.

I'd also add some alfalfa hay to her diet, either baled or in pellets. Add the alfalfa slowly. You'll know you've overdone it if you see loose stools. The alfalfa adds calcium, which she needs to make milk. If the other does are dry, a good grass hay plus pasture is fine for them, and it is the preferred diet for the buck (to avoid urinary calculi - also know as stones in the urethra which can block the flow of urine). Make sure she has a good loose goat mineral - goats can't get enough minerals from a hard block. Keep baking soda where she has free access to it as well. If she has a bit of a tummy ache, she will eat the baking soda to balance out the acid level in her rumen. Just like the old remedy for indigestion for humans. I'm assuming she has access to plenty of fresh water at all times, and that it is kept very clean. Most goats will not touch water with a dropping in it, and some of them won't even drink if there is a straw in it, lol. If her water consumption is down, her milk production has to drop as well.

Tami (Country Haven) is right in pointing out that what I refered to as line breeding would be more correctly known as in-breeding. In breeding can be a part of your overall line breeding program and I do tend to generalize it into line-breeding. If I'm going to be picky about correct terminology, I should practice what I preach,lol! And yes, a lot of old-timers do still call bucks billies and does nannies. For most of the dairy breeders I know, it is considered a bit insulting to call their herd sire a "billy", or their top 10 milker a "nanny". I don't know too many folks who get up in arms if you call their "billy" a buck. So, it's just easier to learn the "correct" term to start with and then you don't have to worry. I'm not trying to start an argument over whether it's okay to use the older terms, and I hope no one took it that way. Just trying to help a newbie to learn.

There are a number of good sites for learning more about your goats, including www.fiascofarms.com and www.dairygoatsplus.com. Maybe some of the other folks could list more sites as well.

[ahahahni1]

Thanks for all the great info! I got some alfalfa and trying now. She doesn't seem to want much of it so far. This afternoon I only got a cup full of milk! Ugh! I wonder too if she has been rebreed her last owner said they were running with the other bucks. Her baby that we weaned was 2 months old. I wonder if she is? Maybe its just a combo of them all. I wonder if I should let her go dry until she is healthy again. What do ya'll think?