goat update - and more questions

[hoggie]

First the good news - the goat that wasn't well - I wormed them both and she is looking much better (in fact she is so much better she is being a pain in the rear end ), her colour, apetite have improved and she is a different goat. Her coat still isn't great but I imagine that will take some time.

On to the questions. I am a little confused. I have a mineral lick for my goats, but when I read the label I discovered that they say they are for sheep, goats and sucklers. I thought that sheep and goats had different mineral requirements (esp copper ? ) so should I look for a different lick ? Or should I add something extra again to the diet? They are on a ready mixed goat feed as I thought it would be better while they are still maturing.

Next question - I have a decent first aid kit relevant to the horse, and so have basic stuff on hand but what goat specific first aid stuff should I have for a goat? We don't have a vet locally (at least not one I would trust - she has killed an awful lot of animals and is under investigation) so if I have troubles I am on my own. Some of the brand names and things will be different so an idea of what things are used for would be helpful and then I can track down our equivalent.

What is Bo-Se ?

I think that is all for now. Any help would be really appreciated - I am a bit worried about the way the togg went downhill and want to be over ready !

Thanks in advance

hoggie

[fishhead]

Yes if your mineral is for sheep it lacks enough copper.

One thing you do NOT want to give your goats is Immodium AD. It stops the gut and can be fatal.

What sex are the goats?

[hoggie]

both female - 1 year old. 1 British Alpine 1 British Toggenberg

[white eagle]

hoggie

Go to this. ---->>>> http://goatsnmore.goldeye.info/goathealth3.htm

This is what I have for meds for my goats.. Just something to help you understand what is what and what it is used for..

[Jim S.]

I'm with fishhead. Stay away from any mineral that is labeled for anything other than goats ONLY. Loose minerals are preferrable to licks. I prefer Sweetlix Meatmaker.

Here's a loose mineral feeder idea you can build that works really well.



You will need to reworm your goats 3 weeks from now, so mark it on a calendar. That will short-circuit the worm cycle enough to get you a leg up on it. I definitely recommend it as essential if the goats had a heavy load -- as yours did.

On the hair, it could be worms or it could be minerals, or both. Get them a GOAT mineral, and over time you will see an improvement.

All I keep on hand is NutriDrench (quick energy), glucose solution (when injected SQ, it revives kids), small syringes (5 cc) with needle, large syringes (60cc for oral administration of liquids), elastrator, Betadine, ivermectin, and calf scours tablets (broken up, for oral administration in the rare scours case). I keep all my vet tool stuff in a fishing tackle box for easy grab-n-go.

I have found that management practices can greatly diminish the need for vet supplies.

[hoggie]

Thank you

White Eagle - that is pretty extensive list - I have printed it off and will work through it. I can see quite a few things on there that are human medicines and also horse wormers. that will make things a bit easier.

Jim S - Thanks for the pic. is it 3 weeks from now or 3 weeks from when i wormed them? I think that was a week or so ago. i have it written down in the feed room as I thought they might need a second dose. I understand what you say about management practices. I have kept horses for nearly 30 years and have always had a topped up first aid kit (partly because of the lack of a vet) and have only ever needed to use anything once, and that was when I took on a horse with a pre-existing condition LOL. It costs me a fortune in replacing things as they go out of date!

But I am panicking a bit about the goats now - i was led to believe that they were really hardy and don't suffer from much, which was one reason that I didn't add anything to my FA kit before I got them. I don't like being in the position I am in now, ie unable to do a great deal for them.

thanks again

hoggie

[Jim S.]

hoggie, it is 3 weeks from when you wormed them last. What you are doing is breaking the cycle with that. You will not have to do that every time you worm, but in acute cases it is very helpful to break the gestation cycle by interrupting it again with a second worming at 3 weeks. It can dramatically reduce the long-term reinfestation rate.

Here is an excellent Australian site on the life cycle of the barber pole worm, the major player in goat anemia, unthriftiness and worm-caused death in the U.S. Goats can and do harbor other worms; those will be eliminated as well by deworming.

http://www.wormboss.com.au/LivePage.aspx?pageId=519

Do NOT panic about your goats. If you learn to properly manage them, and if you observe them for 15 minutes at least once a day for dis-ease and to head off potential problems, they are extremely hardy animals. Look at my list of vet supplies on hand. Not much there, is there? I have been raising goats for 16 years with just those supplies. In those 16 years, I have NEVER had to assist in a birth (knock on wood). Herd health woes have come and gone, but the herd has been remarkably robust the vast majority of the time.

It is all about herd management, and about following what Nature has set out for the goats in Her wisdom. If you follow Nature, you cannot go wrong. If you choose to follow the man-devised, unnatural ways of management, you will need a huge list of stuff to "cure" your goats of your management.

Goats are NOT an intensive management animal UNLESS the producer chooses to make them so by his or her management practices. Always do what is best for the herd, not for pet cutie-pie animals. Take note of individuals that are not displaying the behavior of the herd. That is a sign something is different, whether it be illness, kidding, sore feet or something. Trace back all illness to your management practices: Are you doing something in the way the goats are raised or in their environment to cause this to happen? If so, change that! Cull hard and heartlessly, keeping only the strongest animals. The strength of the herd is what is important, not the individuals.

LOL...comes down to "It's as hard as you make it." I'm lazy...I like to make it easy.

[Sweet Goats]

OK, Everyone. I went to the link that white eagle put in. I printed it out and now I am really confused.
It says that cydectin should NOT be given to goats under the age of 6 months. Now in another thead, several people give it to the babies at a month or two monthe depending on the conditions. It also says NOT to gve to pregnant goats.
Thanks White Eagle for the link.

[Jim S.]

Sweet Goats, I wish no one would use Cydectin AT ALL unless they are absolutely sure by fecal examination that no other wormer will kill their worms. Cydectin is the last efficacious wormer we have -- last line of defense -- and should only be used with proven resistant worms. It is also the most expensive.

Once they get resistant to Cydectin, there's nothing else in development. Which is why FAMACHA should be the code word for every goat producer.

All that said, I have used ivermectin bought at whatever the cheapest price I can find is (and it keeps getting cheaper!), for 16 years and never rotated. It still is 100% effective on my place. Why? Because of FAMACHA and strategic goat deworming. I was doing that practice long before they even called it FAMACHA, back when people told me I was nuts not to worm by the calendar.

I can give -- and have given -- ivermectin at any time, no worries.

As far as kids, if they are still sucking and mama gets wormed, they do too.

[hoggie]

Oh dear - I'm feeling denser and denser. Whats FAMACHA ?

hoggie

[CGUARDSMAN]

Originally Posted by Jim S.

I'm with fishhead. Stay away from any mineral that is labeled for anything other than goats ONLY. Loose minerals are preferrable to licks. I prefer Sweetlix Meatmaker.

Here's a loose mineral feeder idea you can build that works really well.



You will need to reworm your goats 3 weeks from now, so mark it on a calendar. That will short-circuit the worm cycle enough to get you a leg up on it. I definitely recommend it as essential if the goats had a heavy load -- as yours did.

On the hair, it could be worms or it could be minerals, or both. Get them a GOAT mineral, and over time you will see an improvement.

All I keep on hand is NutriDrench (quick energy), glucose solution (when injected SQ, it revives kids), small syringes (5 cc) with needle, large syringes (60cc for oral administration of liquids), elastrator, Betadine, ivermectin, and calf scours tablets (broken up, for oral administration in the rare scours case). I keep all my vet tool stuff in a fishing tackle box for easy grab-n-go.

I have found that management practices can greatly diminish the need for vet supplies.

that is a pretty cool idea for your minerals how much will that size hold?? i could see something like that working for chicken feed too hmmmmm....

[ForMyACDs]

Originally Posted by Jim S.

I'm with fishhead. Stay away from any mineral that is labeled for anything other than goats ONLY.

Not necessarily.....there are some good goat minerals out there, but there are a lot of "goat" minerals that are not appropriate for goats. There are also some good quality horse minerals and dairy cattle minerals that can be used when no other good "goat" minerals are available.

I am in an area where the goat minerals that are generally available are not appropriate for goats. I did a lot of research in order to find the appropriate minerals and found the Right Now Onyx minerals to be a very good choice. I was ordering in Golden Blend, but was unhappy with it. The change in the coats and health of my herd was significant after I started the Right Now.

So, there are other minerals that are better than the goat minerals available, but you have to know what you're looking for and do your research.

Originally Posted by Hoggie

What is Bo-Se ?

Bo-Se stands for : Bovine Selenium-E meaning that it contains Selenium and vitamen E formulated for cattle. Don't quote me this, because I don't have the bottles in front of me, but I believe that Bo-Se is a higher dose of Selenium per cc than what E-Se is (Equine Selenium-E)

[ozark_jewels]

Originally Posted by Sweet Goats

OK, Everyone. I went to the link that white eagle put in. I printed it out and now I am really confused.
It says that cydectin should NOT be given to goats under the age of 6 months. Now in another thead, several people give it to the babies at a month or two monthe depending on the conditions. It also says NOT to gve to pregnant goats.
.

They are covering their backsides by putting all those warnings on there. A very good idea if your going to give advice. That is their opinion on it. Everyone has their own opinion and you must choose what your going to do. That is why I say how *I* would do it, not "go do this". There is a lot of good info on that site, but also a lot that other breeders would disagree with due to their experiences. Its that way with most things.
Cydectin is off-label for goats anyway so its all on a trial basis and we know what has worked in our herds for years. I have used it during all stages of pregnancy, on kids as young as 1 month, and so have many other breeders. It has proven safe under those conditions. And I am using it on a herd of 100+ head of goats.
Have used it for six years now and its very effective. I reccomend anyone in *this area* to use Cydectin when they ask for worming advice. Ask goat people *in your area*, what still works for them. And then take a look at their goats and how many times a year they are worming, to be *sure* it is as effective as they think.

[ozark_jewels]

Stay away from anything labeled "goat & sheep". If it is good for sheep, it won't have what goats need. There are some good cattle minerals out there that work very well for goats.

[Jim S.]

CGUARDSMAN, that holds one 25-pound bag of loose minerals.

As far as worming, by all means do what ya gotta do. Just keep it away from here, so you don't make the last-resort wormer ineffective in my area any sooner than ya have to. I kinda worm like everything else, I have too much of the farmer in me, I use the cheapest input that does the job. The pastes are already done in these parts because of misuse, too early use, etc. Next least expensive is ivermectin, so that is it for me. I use FAMACHA ... see http://www.uky.edu/Ag/AnimalSciences...etter01704.pdf ... to make sure it never becomes ineffective.

[Sweet Goats]

CGUARDSMAN, I have used the smae mineral feeders that Jim posted a picture of. I made al my own. They can be different sizes. It just depends on what size and how much you want it to hold. I believe the PVC pipes ate in 10 foot sections. I have mine made with the 4" pipe. I also made some with the 3" pipe for a friends Pygmy goats. I found the the 3" is just a little small for my goats to get their nose and mouth in it easy. They are wonderful.

[ozark_jewels]

Yep, I use the cheapest that works too....and the FAMACHA method. Thats why I use Cydectin here. Its just the implication that we used it before we needed too thats bugging me.
How often I have to worm concerns me much more than what I'm worming with at this point. Giving your goats enough room and browse is a huge step toward good worming practices. And rotating pastures *if possible*.

[rich2748]

Hoggie,

Where are you located? Are you in Great Britain or Australia? If not how did you get British Alpines?

Rich

[hoggie]

Rich

I am in the UK

hoggie

[fishhead]

I wonder if different soils might influence what minerals work best in some areas but not others. If a soil in one area is deficient for one mineral then it would be necessary to provide it in the form of mineral supplements. Another area might be deficient in another mineral and require a different brand.