Coyote article in country folks

[Patty0315]

The article is written by Ken Thomas . Dr Paul Curtis from Cornell states that a pair of coyotes will hunt and take down deer. Deer can be as high as 40 % of the coyotes diet in Feb. Farmers need to know that coyotes will take small livestock such as sheep , chickens and ducks. Coyotes live in an 800-900 a range . If food is sparse that can go up to 2500 a .

To get some of this information they did fecal studies of coyotes. I guess in this case the proof is in the poop.

So anyone who did not think coyotes were a threat to your sheep and goats here is some proof.


Patty

[Hip_Shot_Hanna]

yup and thats why we have LGDs~

[DocM]

In scientific terms, that's "evidence", not "proof". Hair and bone in scat is proof only of what the animal ate, not what it killed. Coyotes are primarily scavengers, often eating the left overs from larger predator kills, road kill (most likely), and natural deaths. We have huge die offs of deer in this part of the country, in Feb, traditionally the hardest month on deer - due to several diseases/winter weakening. If a coyote is taking down deer in Feb, it's likely taking very weak/sick animals. It's the same with livestock. Feb is when pastured sheep are at the most danger of developing ketosis/milk fever, last part of the pregnancy, inadequate protein/calcium in pasture based animals. Coyotes will take the weak, not strong healthy animals. Statistically, coyotes are much less a threat than your neighbor's dog. I see coyotes every day, and I've never suffered a loss from one, and I run between 25 and 50 sheep/goats all the time. I still maintain that most small livestock holdings do not require a LGD, they're just as well to have a good house dog, secure fencing, and a solid barn.

[DQ]

was there a direct observation of them hunting deer or was the assumption made that deer in fecal matter equals deer hunting? I don't doubt that they can and do hunt deer but I question wether MOST of the deer they eat are not dead already. I lived on some acreage years ago and the coyotes there were huge in comparison to most I have seen. I can see them hunting deer because they were bold too. I walked up to within 40 feet of two of them waving a large stick and hollering with my dog beside me barking. I got a little irked when I started getting that close and they were just watching me. they left when I started throwing things. shiver shiver.

[Patty0315]

DocM I think a coyote could kill a goat in front of you and you still would not see it.
Yes it was necessary to state in scientific terms thats "evidence" . The statement the proof is in the poop was a little joke.

Do you feel you have something to prove ?? It's not just on this board but on several you seem to always have to be right. It's a shame because you do know alot . But some people will not bother to even read what you write .

Maybe you don't need a LGD but that is you. I have a feeling the coyotes stay away because you are nastier than any LGD.


I am not going to argue the facts. The facts are a study was done . The "evidence " was in the poop. The experts say that coyotes will take small livestock. I have seen it as have many others.


Patty

[Patty0315]

They said in pairs they hunt deer. Yes they will eat already dead ones. Why work for dinner when you can get it for free. But if there is not a free meal to be had they will hunt.


Patty

[DocM]

No, I don't have anything to prove. I know Paul, in fact, I did undergrad work at the Long Island research center as part of one of masters. He's a scientist, and I'm a scientist. I was just pointing out to you what I know from observation and clinical research, not from a bunch of inane adecdotal "evidence" posted on a message board. Why don't you just concede that I'm correct and move on? People who are looking for "evidence" to support what they have already decided is true don't need a message board for advice, they're simply looking for affirmation of what they have already decided. I don't care if they're reading me or not, I'm not here to garner the admiration of strangers, I'm simply relating my personal experience and knowledge, from several decades of raising livestock, and several advanced science degrees. Want a copy of CV?

According to my private messages, some people ARE reading me, and they also agree with me. They're more afraid of being attacked by someone like you than they are of me. You can choose to ignore me if you'd like.

"Maybe you don't need a LGD but that is you. I have a feeling the coyotes stay away because you are nastier than any LGD."

That's a personal attack, and isn't allowed on these boards. Oh, and I have an LGD. She's retired though, due to a broken hip and pelvis. She and her mate were attacked by a cougar in Sept. He was killed. So was my 29 yr old arabian, a horse I'd had since I was a teenager. I've posted several times about it, surprised with your obvious interest in my posts you missed them. Why don't you back away from the computer for awhile and calm down? What you read as nasty, most intelligent people simply read as realism.

[CGUARDSMAN]

Originally Posted by DocM

In scientific terms, that's "evidence", not "proof". Hair and bone in scat is proof only of what the animal ate, not what it killed. Coyotes are primarily scavengers, often eating the left overs from larger predator kills, road kill (most likely), and natural deaths. We have huge die offs of deer in this part of the country, in Feb, traditionally the hardest month on deer - due to several diseases/winter weakening. If a coyote is taking down deer in Feb, it's likely taking very weak/sick animals. It's the same with livestock. Feb is when pastured sheep are at the most danger of developing ketosis/milk fever, last part of the pregnancy, inadequate protein/calcium in pasture based animals. Coyotes will take the weak, not strong healthy animals. Statistically, coyotes are much less a threat than your neighbor's dog. I see coyotes every day, and I've never suffered a loss from one, and I run between 25 and 50 sheep/goats all the time. I still maintain that most small livestock holdings do not require a LGD, they're just as well to have a good house dog, secure fencing, and a solid barn.

i have seen these comments from you on coyotes before and i disagree with you. they can and do take sheep as my neighbor loses sheep to them more often than he would like. i have lost several chickens to them that i saw them running off with the bird in their mouth. They are predators they may seek out weak animals in some instance but not all by any means. My neighbor lost a perfectly healthy 2 y.o. ram to a pair that ganged up on him.

[HazyDay]

Wow people claim down! (yea why is he talking about it? He did alot! ) I now have thought about it and DocM is just a person says her/his thoughts and if they don't seem to be right ok, But the small thing about "you don't need a LGD because you are more nasty" was a little funny then I thougth about it These are REAL people not some bunch of robots. So please becareful about what you say! (Im not siding what any one, it' just seems like any post that has to do with animals never gets answered becasue we are all yelling at each other! AND ONCE AGIAN IM JUST SAYING THIS AND NOT POINTING FINGERS AT ANY-ONE OR TRYING TO MAKE SOME ONE LOOK BAD!)

[HazyDay]

Ok read another one I have seen 4 gang up on a calf and the mom try to get rid of them. My uncle shot one and the others ran away. It was in the summer and there were tons of deer and so it shows that if they are just borad they can kill for fun like dogs.

[Patty0315]

I was not looking for evidence I did not need to . I just got the mail and read the paper. Its not like I was looking in back isssues. So you and Paul are scientists . Thats nice . So why are you correct and he is not ?

I am sure some people read what you write. You know alot . The way you go about some of your posts is the problem. You have gone out of your way everytime a post about coyotes and LGD has come up to basically say we don't know what we are talking about. So all the people who have seen coyotes attacking there stock are on acid ? I think not .

You also went back and changed the wording in your first post on this topic. You made it sound much nicer


Patty.

[CGUARDSMAN]

Originally Posted by DocM

Sorry, but your posting about your neighbor's sheep isn't proof. I don't care if you disagree with me or not. I have never disputed that coyotes take livestock, what I have said over and over is that they are not primarily predators and will take a healthy sheep or goat only as a last resort. They are primarily scavengers. That's not a disputable fact, that's pure science. Observations of coyotes taking healthy sheep, goats, or deer are very rare, in comparison to other predators, automobiles, stray dogs, etc. The point is that isn't hardly worth the work and expense of having an LGD if you have a couple of goats on a couple of acres. Somehow, every person has missed that - even when others have repeated the exact same thing.

i guess its just those Oregon coyotes that don't take healthy livestock while your watching i am not arguing the fact about the lgds as you said it is not worth the trouble for very small acreages. I don't asked to be believed by you either and really could care less what you think you know. i know what i have seen and what observations my neighbor made as the ram was being taken down.....it was enough proof for me that they do take down healthy animals and not as rare as you may think.

[DocM]

Originally Posted by Patty0315

You also went back and changed the wording in your first post on this topic. You made it sound much nicer


Patty.

That is a bold faced lie. I edited it to add the part about finding bone and hair not being evidence of anything other than proof of what the animal ate.

I am putting you on ignore now. Don't expect anymore responses from me. If there's one thing I can't tolerate, it's a Pharisee. Actually, there are a lot of things I can't tolerate, but that's okay, I don't pretend to tolerate them, and a lying Christian deserves no respect from me.

[YuccaFlatsRanch]

Doc - I have LGD's. I also have sheep and goats. This area has Coyotes (lots of them), and Caracara (mexican Bald eagles), and the neighbors have dogs that stray. I don't lose sheep. My neighbor has sheep and no dogs and he loses lambs - finds them even in his pens with the guts eaten out. Now unless the sheep are canabalistic I think I am doing something he isn't and our property lines touch.

I think I will keep my dogs.

If you don't want them then be as dumb as my neighbor. Each lamb lost represents about $125.00 in sales for him. He has lost about 10 lambs this year. You do the math and tell me if the dogs earn their keep.

[DocM]

Originally Posted by YuccaFlatsRanch

If you don't want them then be as dumb as my neighbor.

More personal attacks. More anecdotal evidence. More misquoting of what I've said over and over. Sigh. Is reading comprehension a lost art?

[Patty0315]

CGUARDSMAN are you sure its proof and not evidence ?? I was wrong cause I just ain't that smart and am not a scientist . I guess thats why I cannot believe what my eyes see.

see ya dumb uneducated ~ Patty
anyone want to join the uneducated club with me ?

[Patty0315]

OK I could be wrong maybe it was the second or 3rd post that was nicer with all the back tracking .


Yippeeee someone is ignoring me.

[HazyDay]

Originally Posted by Patty0315

Yippeeee someone is ignoring me.

Ok I will to you brat faced loser! Kidding! I do love how bold you all are! I do have that ignore thingy but don't use it! I love hearing what people have to say about me! (Now thats doesn't give any one tha right to, talk about me!!!!!!!!)

(But if you think the brat faced loser thing was a attack it wasn't just diddn't need any miss reading!)

[HazyDay]

Originally Posted by DocM

More personal attacks. More anecdotal evidence. More misquoting of what I've said over and over. Sigh. Is reading comprehension a lost art?

That wasn't really a attack towards you. Just a saying that if your dumb as this persons nighbor to not keep dogs. I do not keep them as I have alot of nightbors with dogs and have a very strong fenece and any aniaml that is so stupied to come on our land is either shot or caged!
Does any one else have an attack cat? Our 15 year old tom is the best to keep away strays! Last week a black tom came and sprayed in the back yard (ours was in the front ) and I chased him away, and their is an ally between the chicken coop and goat barn and I chased him that way. Our tom smelled him and attacked him all the ways to the woods! about 5 mins running as fast as they can. Wow to think about it our indian runners are attackers to! they kill mice in our chicken coop all year!

[Patty0315]

Sorry guys I am usually nicer. I am just tired of someone telling a bunch of us we are full of shi* . I know what I have seen . I believe what people have told me . I believe others on this forum who have posted about coyote trouble.. For someone to say its not true can lead a new livestock producer to ignore the coyotes thinking there is no problem til there kid crop is killed off.

The responses from this post and a few others have gone from coyotes dont kill sheep , goats and deer and they are scavengers to well ya they will take the weak old or sick. Its one or the other.

Yes roaming dogs probally cause more damage than coyotes to most but a LGD will take care of them to.


Patty

and thats uneducated brat face loser