Dogs and Coyotes

[lyceum]

This morning, we were getting ready to start milking. The dogs were in the top cow pasture barking their heads off. I go out in the goat pen to take a closer look and they were chasing 4-5 coyotes off, or trying to. Those are the bravest coyotes I have ever seen. There ae 2 goat pens back there and that is where the dogs were hanging around after they chased the coyotes off. The donkeys of course were nowhere in sight. The dogs kept their distance, just pressuring them enough to get them out of here. We have 5 outside dogs, and they would not chase the coyotes until they were all there to work together. What worries me is just how close 1 or 2 of them were to the goat pens. At least the dogs did their job, even if the donkeys didn't.

Carisa

[CountryHaven]

Sure am glad those guys did their job. What a scary thing. If they were that close to your pens they were really close up to the house which is unusual (I think) for coyotes. They must have really been hungry.

[Patty0315]

Give those dogs a steak dinner. The coyotes are hungry. If you know anyone who hunts you may want to have them over for a little target practice.


PATTY

[DocM]

My lab mix regularily runs off coyotes. Most any dog will go after a coyote. And most everytime, the coyote will run.

Coyotes in your pasture doesn't automatically mean they're looking for a goat dinner. 9 times out of 10, they're hunting field mice and voles. Probably doing you a favor. I seriously can't believe the panic over coyotes I read on this forum. I live in an area absolutely saturated with coyotes. They pass through my pasture all the time. I have yet to lose a goat or a sheep (or even have them hassled) by coyotes.

A coyote is a scavenger, not a predator.

[Patty0315]

In some parts that may be true. I know of local long term sheep farmers who have lost of there crops to coyotes. The they got llahmas {spelling darn it ! }. So what may be true for some may not be true for others. Coyotes do not even come close to my place because of the dogs.

Patty

[lyceum]

It's not the goats we worry about. We have cows in the pasture where they were at. We have cows due to calve soon. That number of coyotes can take out a cow and her calf if they put their minds to it, espceially if she is calving.

Carisa

[Patty0315]

Your big cows are safe but the calves may not be . I know in our herd and neighbors the cows will band together to run of dogs or coyotes. It is actually funny to watch. We have had neighbors loss a calf or 2 over the years.


Patty

[Oat Bucket Farm]

Coyotes around here don't just scavenge. They hunt in packs and do get calves and young goats.

I used to have a young horse that was a great deterrent to all canines. He thought the entire canine species was created for him to chase,stomp and throw around.

[DocM]

If your "young goats" are in danger of being eaten by pack of coyotes, why have them out in an open pasture? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to keep them penned up closer to the sights and sounds of the barn/house? I would never keep lambs/kids out in the open pasture, for any number of reasons. The point is, any dog (the OP didn't mention that her dogs were anything but "outside dogs) will chase off coyotes, coyotes don't generally kill healthy livestock of any kind, and an expensive and unreliable "livestock guard dog" isn't necessary or even beneficial on most small farms. There aren't more coyotes in Kansas than in the coast range of Oregon, trust me, I looked it up. This is fawning season, and elk calving season. A coyote is much smarter than you give him credit for. He's not going to go into a populated field to take livestock when there are plenty of unguarded wildlife to eat.

[Oat Bucket Farm]

We only have one goat and she is in a pen close to the house. I was speaking of others people around here.

[DocM]

The real point to livestock guarding is to use common sense and not expect a dumb animal (a dog, no matter how much you paid for him, can't reason, same goes for a llama, a donkey, or whatever you choose). Keep your animals in secure areas when predators are most active, learn the actual habits of the animals in your area, not what you read in anecdotal stories online, and don't put your livestock in harm's way. The best "livestock guardian" is the human who chooses to raise them. And seriously, most any dog will bark at anything that enters its "territory". A LGD isn't suitable for most small farms. They end up wandering off the property, killing neighboring dogs, killing the owners pets, getting shot and poisoned, and other horrible things. If you have 100 acres and you choose to let your livestock roam where you can't see them, then a dog is a tool, not a guarantee against predation. If you have 10 or 15 acres, a livestock guardian is overkill and you're in the wrong hobby.

[thaiblue12]

I guess Doc that you know for certain the pattern of coyotes and no one can tell you otherwise. Where I live in Colorado there are NO deer and elk in this area. But there sure are a lot of coyotes and they seem to be horrible this year.
They have eaten my ducks in the past. They HAVE eaten my neighbors baby calves and they are less than 200 feet from their house. They might be savengers but when there is nothing for them to savenge, they are killers in their own right.
I was at the post office this week and the Postal woman there was still upset that 2 coyotes were on her front porch had her smaller dog by the neck and were trying to drag it away. Her and her husband scared them and dropped her dog. Some puncture wounds but still alive. It is refusing to go outside and I can't blame the dog.
So your coyotes might not care about about your livestock but out here to coyotes they think we are giving them bigger free meals and it takes less effort to catch than a bunch a tiny field mice and voles.
Lyceum I would keep an eye out for the time being. If they think you are an easy mark they will be back for dinner. Your dogs did great!

[rranch]

I don't think a coyote is a scavenger. I think he is more of an opportunist. Young and wandering animals make great prey. And easy pickins. Out here in the PNW the coyotes have been known to take down full grown elk. I have a friend that had his entire herd of pygmy goats attacked also. They left puncture wounds and roughed them up pretty good. They were all left alive though. Yeah.

[flannelberry]

Originally Posted by DocM

And seriously, most any dog will bark at anything that enters its "territory". A LGD isn't suitable for most small farms. They end up wandering off the property, killing neighbouring dogs, killing the owners pets, getting shot and poisoned, and other horrible things. If you have 100 acres and you choose to let your livestock roam where you can't see them, then a dog is a tool, not a guarantee against predation. If you have 10 or 15 acres, a livestock guardian is overkill and you're in the wrong hobby.

Ouch. I beg to differ Doc. We have a small hobby farm (30 acres total) and without the dog (pyr) I doubt we'd have any ducks left. She also kept the coyotes away while our ewe went into premature labour, not to mention being a comfort to me but totally safe and settling for the ewes to be around. I've never had that with any other types of dogs -not even my shepherd. He's great with the stock but you couldn't say that he helps them settle.

We're up on a mountainside with one neighbour to the side and one across the road. Behind us is miles and miles of untamed, wild forest. It's beautiful and full of predators. Around here barking isn't enough for predator control. We've had dogs that bark and the bear, cougars and coyotes still come into the yard. Our ShepX used to routinely run the bears out and they'd come back. Since we've had the pyr those animals have been in all around but not in our yard. Including seeing signs of them around our property line but never where our Pyr has marked.

We've considered barning up the stock at night but that's inconsistent with the way we farm - which is trying to keep them in as natural an environment as possible. That's both for the stock - who don't do as well cooped up (we have Icelandics and ducks and we select for hardy foragers that we can keep as close to their origins as possible) and out of respect for the environment - why put up one more building if it's not needed? Also, many LGD keep predation problems - ie rats, raccoon etc - from stealing young inside the barn. A friend's Maremmas alerted her to a loose board in her barn that coyotes had gotten in through while her sheep were lambing last year. One held off the coyotes and alerted the people while the other stayed with the ewes and lambs. The barn - in decent shape actually but with a weak area they'd not seen - didn't do much to stop the predators. And before the assertion is made - these are very conscientious farmers who put their everything into their animals.

I do agree though, that you can't assume that because you've got a dozen acres your LGD dog will believe it has to stay home rather than patrolling everyone else's land. You do have to take steps to keep them home (we've finally got a hot wire system that has been working with ours). And that they are an adjunct and helper to a farmer but not a farmer themself.

I'm not sure about the roaming, killing neighbour's pets etc. Sure, there is a possibility that a LGD can "go bad" and develop a prey drive but it's neither common nor likely. I'd urge anyone with questions/concerns or training advice re: LGD to go to LGD.org and/or join the list for the facts about LGD. I would also urge anyone considering a LGD not to go for the bottom dollar “bred on the farm” dog. We went for a papered dog not because we wanted to say “ooohhh we have a papered dog” but because there were some guarantees with that. For example – we knew the lineage of the dog. We also went for a breeder who has working animals on a working farm and who has more years of experience than I have been alive. Those sorts of things help to ensure that you’ll have the kind of dog you want. It’s also meant that as questions have come up we’ve had a “go to” person who’s helped us to make sure our Pyr is the best working and family dog she can be.

I'm sorry that you had a bad LGD experience - but that doesn't make them all worthless.

Take care.

[flannelberry]

Originally Posted by DocM

getting shot and poisoned, and other horrible things.

That is true as well - there is a tonne of research to support the fact that most working LGD have a shorter than average lifespan and being shot and hit by vehicles are the two most common causes of death.

[flannelberry]

Originally Posted by DocM

If your "young goats" are in danger of being eaten by pack of coyotes, why have them out in an open pasture? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to keep them penned up closer to the sights and sounds of the barn/house? I would never keep lambs/kids out in the open pasture, for any number of reasons.

<snip>

Keep your animals in secure areas when predators are most active, learn the actual habits of the animals in your area, not what you read in anecdotal stories online, and don't put your livestock in harm's way.

Ok - perhaps I don't understand how you are using "open pasture" but if by open pasture you mean a fenced in area that isn't in a barn... the fact is that when you turn your ewes out, if they lamb they lamb. I have had more lamb during afternoon/ early evening than middle of the night (a trend I won't be sorry to see continue).

The other point you made about keeping your animals in secure areas when predators are most active - well... mine would have to live in a barn 24/7. We have raptors and ravens during the day - they go after the ducks and ducklings as well as the lambs. We have bears - also usually in the day as well as stray dogs - in the day. Coyotes are most often in the night, as are the raccoons, well dawn and dusk - along with the owls. Without our pyr the stock would have to live 24/7 in a barn.

[charliesbugs]

We are on 17 acres in farming area.Have lots of houses around us(people who want to be 'in the country'.We had a young Jack Russell killed by coyotes.She was with an older , more experienced Jackwho killed everything-raccoons,possum,ground hogs.She barely got away!The coyotes have killed neighbors cats and almost got a neighbors 'little fuzzy dog'.The neighbor saw the coyote VERY close to their house.lots of people don't even know a coyote when they see one- they think it's a dog!

[KSALguy]

you live in a blessed location Doc, Coyotes are more of a problem in 90% of the country outside your location,

Coyotes will think nothing of killing livestock and even some dogs, in Kansas anyone who has medium sized dogs has to be careful when they let them out at night or they may not return. and that goes for anything from a Spanial, to lab mixes,
calfs and adult goats are at risk as well, i have seen what a coyote can do to an adult goat and sheep,

LGD's and LLamas and Donkeys are worth their weight in Gold to MANY SMALL and large farms that keep livestock,

i am sure many of us wish we had the non dangerous kind of Coyotes that you do but we dont, and we have to do what we do to keep things safe.

[shepherdess1]

We have sheep and goats, and the coyotes are real good at snatching a lamb now and then, and it's an area not to far from the barn that they choose. I'm glad of our LGD, she's out there barking at them every night, I'm sure it helps!

[pokyone42]

I remember my first encounter with coyotes.. and I lived in Central NY at the time.. My kidding (new mama) pen was in my garage, (which was attached to the house) and I had a little outdoor fenced area for the new mama and the babies....(they could go in and out as they pleased. Fortunately, it was woven wire with one hot wire around the inside...) One evening, I heard all of these horrible, spine-chilling yips, howls and cries! It scared me to DEATH! I took a flashlight out, and there, surrounding my small woven wire outdoor area for mamas and babies, was a pack of very hungry coyotes! (The babies were about a week old, and standing behind mama, who was standing there snorting and stomping her feet.. it was then....(about 17 or 18 years ago, that I began securely locking the goats inside when it got dark.) This was only about 9:30 pm in the summer.. -dusk....

No. I do not have an LGD, but we have 4 kinda dumb mutts that sorta do okay patrolling ..