CAE..I need some clear answers.

[ONThorsegirl]

Ok I understand that CAE can be transmitted from doe to kid etc. but why take them off the doe and still feed the does milk to the kid? how is it transmitted to the kid if its not through the milk? Any clearing up or info would be great.

Melissa

[toomb68]

the milk is heat treated prior to bottle feeding.....this destroys the virus that causes the disease..............

[Charleen]

Proper pasteurization of the milk and proper heat treating of the colostrum will kill the CAE virus.

[HazyDay]

What you must be thinking, is what I thought when I first read some about CAE. Not just the coltsrum is heat treated all milk is. Not that means a whole lot of work before bottles! But for what im told you can stop heat treating for 1oth genration Cae rasied kids! thats about 20 years! (at each doe being about 2 at kidding!)

[DocM]

Of course, if your doe has been tested CAE negative, it still begs the question - why pull the kids at all...

[wardarden]

DocM,

I have always thought the same thing as you. Why do we test, cull, and then still pull kids from a doe that you know has tested negative???

[Charleen]

Originally Posted by HazyDay

But for what im told you can stop heat treating for 1oth genration Cae rasied kids! thats about 20 years! (at each doe being about 2 at kidding!)

Sorry, I wouldn't trust this at all. A goat that has continually tested neg can become pos.


We test for CAE yearly through WSU. We had a doe that continually test negative (for 4 years) all of a sudden test positive. We figured that something was wrong with the test, so we called WSU. They explained that a goat is considered pos at a score of 35 or above. Our paperwork only stated pos or neg, so now, we call them after every test and ask for each goat's score and watch these each year. We've had them slowly creep up to 35.

[ONThorsegirl]

ok, If its an inherited genetic disease then how does it just happen to show up??? Wouldn't it make sense to just cull every doe that has came pos, and every kid born from these does. I know it sounds harsh but inorder to eradicate a disease doesn't it need to end??

If the disease constintly keeps showing up, then whats the point on the test, wouldn't it make sense that possibly every doe could have cae.

Sorry this is just one thing I'm finding hard to understand.

Whats in the milk that the kids can get? it doesn't get passed from the doe to the kid through imbillical cord, or placenta? Kid is fed threw the imbillical cord while in the womb, wouldn't things be passed through there?

Ok I think I need to go and read up on this.

Melissa

[Jim S.]

http://www.ics.uci.edu/~pazzani/4H/CAE.html

[madness]

Er, I guess I don't get it now either. I read the link that Jim posted. Let's say I just have one doe and she's negative. The document mentioned that it's really hard to pass CAE between adult animals. So I breed my doe to a negative male. Why would I pull the kid? This argument can be expanded to a whole herd (closed herd).

Is the reason for retesting/culling/pulling kids simply that a "negative" animal can become positive as anitbodies build up and you simply might not know they carry CAE? Then wouldn't HazyDay be right about some number of generations (in a closed herd) of negative animals would ensure you that you have REALLY negative animals?

I also agree with Melissa - if it does just "show up" what's the point of even testing? Shouldn't you just always pull the kids and leave it at that? Maybe test one that shows symptoms and cull then?

[ONThorsegirl]

Opps Didn't mean to make things more complicated for anyone, but it was sure bugging me to know the answers.
Melissa

[madness]

I just spent the last hour reading CAE stuff online. I had never really delved into the nitty gritty of it (I'm still in the "planning" stage of owning goats). It looks like there are just as many different opinions about it as there are about politics or religion.

But the majority of folks definitely agree with some sort of prevention. Either it being a closed herd (with no testing/pulling kids), or a complete regiment of testing every six months and doing what needs to be done with the positives.

I did read some "disturbing" things about its transmission though.

The chance of in utero (or vaginal) transmission can be as high as 10%.

It can take up to 8 months from the time of infection to showing positive on a test (talk about a long quarantine!).

And also that most “scientists” think that animals over the age of 2 that tested negative in the past and now test positive got it from “horizontal transmission” eg from another goat in the herd and not from infection from milk/colustrum. So if you’ve had an older doe suddenly test positive in your negative herd, you might have at least one other positive that you didn’t know about.

Melissa – read the sticky on CAE. There’s lots of links in there that help explain things. But basically, not everything is entirely understood about the disease yet. My understanding is that it’s just the best idea to do what ever you can to prevent it from spreading.

[DocM]

CAE prevention (pulling kids) is done because it's become a standard practice that breeders use to ask more money for their kids.

Kids can't get CAE from a negative dam.

Animals that test positive after a long period of being negative, or animals that "catch" CAE from other members of a herd are a very small percentage of the total number of postive animals. So small as to not even be a factor in prevention. CAE requires a body fluid transfer, not unlike HIV. Casual contact with other herd members rarely results in CAE transmission.

The majority of positive animals received the infection from nursing on an infected (and obviously untested) doe. With so many backyard breeders (ie "homesteaders) around, a few breeders attempting to prevent the spread of CAE by pulling kids from tested negative mothers is like damming the dyke with a finger. A majority of goats aren't raised in registered show herds, so all the testing and prevention in the world isn't going to stem the tide, not even a little bit. (pun intended)

A vast majority of animals that are positive to CAE never show any symptoms of the disease. Ever. Usually, the most serious symptom is a congested udder upon kidding.

As a goat owner, I don't understand why more people aren't concerned about the poor care so many animals receive, you know, those animals that end up tied out back with no herd mates, animals that never receive medical care because their owners can't afford a vet, animals with horns who are left to catch themselves in a fence. CAE? Least of my worries, yet in the "goat world" it HAS become a religion.

As a "scientist", I really don't understand why, when there are far more dangerous conditions and diseases to consider, CAE gets so much attention and discussion - except for the fact that it's become a marketing ploy among breeders to command higher prices for their kids.

[Jim S.]

Let me just say that I am just SHOCKED...SHOCKED that Doc would insinuate that there is an air of hucksterism in the goat industry! LOLOLOL. Why, she seems to think breeders would actually seize on anything, no matter its true actual impact, as a "sales edge" for boosting their animals' prices and desireability.

She's got me on ignore anyway, so she won't see this. But she wrote a darned good post. Made my day!

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

We heat treat and pasteurise colostrum than milk, and pull kids for alot more than CAE. Not only does it give us a dog tame kid to sell, or keep and show, but as a milker herself she has a soft udder, is staph mastitis free, does not have any communicable disease passed by raw goats milk and is a pleasure for us or someone else to milk. The market I sell to, which includes many forum members here and on my forum, demands testing and the raising of stock on pevention. I sell lots of goats with contracts that contain 30 day gurantees that the milker will test negative at her new home, when the doe herself will be moving into an untested herd. All kids are sold with negative tests on does here who are milking.

Buy goats, breed goats, raise goats however you want. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. For me and my farm I will always heat treat and pasteurise, the kids are better....for me. The does udders are better being milked, less uneven.

I have a purchased dam raised kid, she had better come into a show udder or she will be sold, a wonderful pedigree, tested negative for everything, and guess what she will sell for less than a compariable doe the same age from my herd because she will be dicounted for the fact she is wild. No she was not wild for the man who raised her, I saw him with her, but she is wild for me. She will wear a drag roap the day she kids so I can stop her from running out to the back 40 at every milking time until she finally learns the routine. How attractive is that!

So for all the wringing of hands all you have with questions about why we would continue to use prevention, I have the same exact feelings about how you manage your goats. Difference is I can sell to all of you, and you will never sell to anyone who demands goats come from a herd that does prevention. Bottom line, it hurts sales. And once again, it is alot more than just CAE that I do this for. Vicki

[Jim S.]

There ya go, folks. Vicki says it gives her goats a sales edge. There's the honest, expert answer, right there, as to why it is done.

Now scientifically or whatever, it may be debatable whether it is or is not necessary in negative herds. But if it provides a value added that is above the input cost of doing it, well who could argue with that? It's called salesmanship, which for example is why black cattle of nearly any breed are hot and brown ones are not. If I had brown cows, I'd be wanting to get to black if I wanted high dollar.

How animals are managed depends on their purpose. Look at city dogs and farm dogs, for example. I doubt you see many farm dogs dressed up in $150 "designer dog clothes" like you do often in New York City. Same with goats. If it's a pet thing, it'll be managed differently from a milk herd, which is different from commodity meat, which is vastly different from the breeder's show ring.

When each of those animals or their progeny is sold, it will have a different sales approach.

Management also depends on the owner's attitude about what is "correct" practice -- a highly variable thing -- and on owner past experiences, also variable. It also depends on where the herd is located. Deep South vs. Northeast are two entirely different environments, with some commonalities.

What works for me may not work for you. Works fine for me, though. Personally, I have no CAE worries. My kids are sold as a commodity at commodity pricing, and will long have been digested by the time CAE would be an issue to them, if I had any in the herd. I cull mamas aggressively, so the breeding herd tends to stay younger.

Now if I was in dairy and wanted to keep that milker in the string for as long as she would kid, CAE would be somewhat more of a concern.

It comes down to management ... and the sales edge, if it is present.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Exactly Jim...and why it becomes a dirty word for someone to actually make money off their farm is beyond me. I would LOVE to start a thread where everyones partners who work off the farm come on and say exactly how they feel about supporting the non profitable hobby most have!

Raising animals you enjoy and getting the most you can for whatever you do IS the homesteading way. Vicki

[southerngurl]

Hey Vicki, your link in your signature doesn't work.

[Jim S.]

Vicki, I think another key for the forum's sake is that, since there are so many variables involved in all of our management practices, we all need to be less involved with saying the other person is RIGHT OR WRONG, and more involved with saying HERE IS HOW I DO IT, NOW YOU DECIDE. Inherent in saying that, it would be cool if we all would refrain from adding AND THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO DO IT RIGHT.

Heheheheheh...

In that way, the forum becomes a huge resource of all viewpoints, in each thread, and the person asking the question can then tailor responses to fit their situation.

To get personal, I agree with a lot of the stuff you write, and most of the vet advice you give, especially. That's partly why I usually don't respond to vet questions and tend to stick just to management-type stuff to toss in my .02. (Unless you don't catch it, then I will toss in an observation on a vet topic...or rarely mif there may be another perspective.)

But all that said, while we often agree it can appear that we almost totally don't agree. That's because our producer situations are so totally different. There is NO WAY that I could raise my goats like you do, even if I wanted to copy you perfectly. Same with you. We are in different goaty worlds, with different goals. But we can offer different perspectives that can be helpful in certain aspects to people reading our posts for info.

I'd apply that observation to everyone on this forum. That is what is so cool. No longer do new goat producers have to sit there in the pasture next to a downer goat paging through Merck's manuals and goat books to try to find some kind of answer TOTALLY ON THEIR OWN IN AN EMERGENCY as to what to do. Lord, that's what I had to do when I learned, in the dark years back before these Net forums. But now we all can share our perspectives. And everyone has something to contribute, whether it's a question that raises a new issue or an answer with a unique insight, or a new way to do something.

IT'S TOTALLY KEWL!

[Jim S.]

Let me add real quick, too, that the non-profit hobby part of the biz is essential to many breeders getting better prices for their stock. It is a sales point! Without the hobbyist, a lot of goat prices would not be so high. So breeders gotta say "Thank GAWD for these hobbyists who'll pay top dollar!"

Cuz a penny-pinching farmer like me won't do it. I could not care less about your ennoblements and your pedigrees. I want a well-conformed buck who is priced right for what he'll throw off cheap does, and I don't care about the rest. (We call 'em billies and nannies on the farm. I just use the fancier buck and doe here.)

And let's face it, without the show/hobby $4,000 and $5,000 and such Boer bucks being sold, that high-level genetics would never be able to eventually trickle down to commodity producers like myself. I just wish the field would level even more than it has, price-wise, so I could justify those genetics in my herd. Til then, I'll carry on.