HELP! What else am I supposed to do???

[midkiffsjoy]

Mom just called me and drove me up to her house because a doe she had just bought who wasnt supposed to kid for a nother month (or two) was in labor and having problems. Mom also told me that she's been having what I would consider scores for about two days. She figured it was because the doe went from a dry lot with not enough hay environment to having all the pasture and water grass (I know...I know) she wants. She was pushing and pushing and nothing was coming out. Shes been round the block and is an old hand at this (or so we were told) but it wasnt happening. She had lots of amber fluid hangnig out, was calling to her kids (not born yet) and squating and pushing....nothing happened. SO....we waited as long as we dared, put on gloves and I checked her. The kid was like it was supposed to be, but she couldnt get him out, so I gently pulled and togeather the doe and I got him out. I knew he was dead for sure, he just flopped around and then laid there for the longest time. We cleaned him up and let him lay there (he was breathing so I didnt give him mouth to mouth, but this is the first time we've EVER had any kind of "assit needed" situations so I was trying to remember EVERYTHING I've EVER read all at once) and after laying there forever (probably 5 mins) he picked his head up. The second one got his feet and nose out on it's own and then just stopped. I helped her get the rest of him out. They are both LOOKING like they are going to be okay, though a little small. We havent weighed them yet. Mom is helping them nurse. The doe had NO udder at all yet, but she's got milk.

My question is....

I KNOW when you stick your hand inside a goat you have to give them a shot of antibiodic. I dont have any....WHAT do I buy when I make my mad dash to the feed store, and how much do I give her????

Can anyone think of anything else we can do for the kids right now??? They are a little slow in standing up, but they are tough little SOBs and they are trying to make it.

Can anyone suggest what to do about the loose poops. Do I wait until tomorrow to worm her (like the book says) or should I go ahead and do it now???

Feel free to yell at me all you want as long as you have an idea of something I can do!!!


Thanks!!!

[mamahen]

I wouldn't worry about any antibiotics for the doe. You only had your hand in the birth canal, not thru the cervix? If that's the case, she should be fine. It's only when you have to go way in, that they may need meds.

Maybe give the kids & mom a squirt of Nutridrench for goats. If you don't have that, maybe a little karo on your finger for the kids. And a nice warm pail of molasses water for momma.

Worming, I'd probably wait til tomorrow to worm. But definatley do it soon.

Make sure the kids are warm, if they're tiny. Make sure momma can keep up with the supply & demand of feeding them, especially if her udder hasn't happened yet.

Good luck!

[midkiffsjoy]

I found info on giving pepto bismol for the scours. (I'm doing a mad search. grin) We have nutridrench and will do that right now!

I had my hand just up past my wrist. Not that far in (though farther than I've EVER been inside anyone/thing before). The reason I was worried was because I think some scour got inside of her. I dont want her to become infected.

Thank you for mentioning the nutradrench to me. To be honest, I'm about out of adriniline and am about to have to take a nap. giggle. Mom's just come up for a drink and is about to head back down to the barn. I'll take the nutradrench to her.

[Blossomgapfarm]

You did GREAT!

Make sure they are dry, stay warm and are eating well. If mom does not develop an udder soon, you may have to supplement - with whole cows milk from the grocery store if you don't have access to more goat milk (not the replacer - too many people have problems with it.)

Just so you know, when they are born a bit floppy like that, don't be gentle with the drying them off. Firm brisk, rubbing, especially of their back, stimulates them to breath which helps get them going. Don't be affraid to pick them up or move them around to get them clean. You want to stimulate them to start moving and breathing on their own and gentle won't do that.

Congrats on the kids! We need pics now!

Dawn

[midkiffsjoy]

See the weird thing is....We've had goats for 2 years now, I've cleaned off lots of kids (though not anything like the poor lady whose had 18 kids in the last week. I'd loose my mind! giggle) This is just the first time we've ever had to "help". I keep wondering if we'd have left her alone for another hour or so if she'd have been able to do it herself, but we did NOT want to take a chance on losing the doe, even if it was too late for the kids. We had a cow once who needed help and Dad waited, and she and the calf died. This was the first time we ever had a kid flop around like that, the second one didnt do the weird floppy thing. Mom gave them the nutradrench and the doe the pepto. She says they are both nursing, but neither is standing yet. They are trying but they arent quite there yet. The doe is AWESOME!!! I've had does just walk off from their kids. Shes standing right over them and letting them nurse even though they are up on their front legs but their back legs are sprawled out behind them.

You dont want to see these pics....they look like they are covered in blood (that amber fluid).

Another stupid question.....I just had a doe give birth last week and she was the first to ever have this weird "nursing baby poop" yellow (thats the color) fluid. I just read that it's SUPPOSED to be that yellow/amber color. But all of our goats before have had clear fluid. These two (mine and now this doe) have both had very bloody amber fluids. Is that normal or were our OTHER does the weirdos??? It was just so different from what I'm typically used to that I had to ask.

It's not everyday that you walk around asking people what the color of THEIR goats ambiodic fluids are. giggle.

[Blossomgapfarm]

Our first birth this year was from a sheep and the fluid was so dark I was convinced the kid had to be dead. (I worked in a NICU for several years and when we saw fluid that color we knew we were in serious trouble.) The lamb turned out fine but was a yucky brown yellow tinged color for a week or so. Since then I did some talking with someone who had been in the business for a while, and he often sees dark or orange colored fluid for winter/early spring births. It does come from stressers. Other times of the year, and with some of his animals, the fluid is always clear. I think either is fairly normal. (I am a newbie to sheep/goat births though. )

I had some questions about a kid with sprawling back legs a few days ago. This kid could not stand on his own for quite a while but if you put his legs under him, he could. After a day or so, he was fine. I think it can be caused from a lack of some minerals (someone recommended Bo-Se) but mine was fine the next am so I did not give it. Mom had had a shot about 5 weeks before kidding.
Dawn

[midkiffsjoy]

Thank you so much Dawn!!!

Now I know what the color means and not to worry! Anything unusual always gets noticed and I was worried. It's a good thing to know that your kids turned out okay. It's nice being able to ASK!!! grin.

I think I'm gonna go saddle up for a ride now. Probably be more calming than a nap! grin. With all the sun we've had (weird weather for feb) we've been working like ticks to get as much done as possible before the next front hits and this was just TOTALLY out of the blue!!!! Thank goodness for Fias Farm's page on "bouncing" !!!!! grin. (It ACTUALLY WORKS!!!! I've never HAD to do it before, but you REALLY CAN tell if there are kids inside or not!!! That really helps out when youre running around like a chicken with his head cut off trying to remember what to do next!!!) grin.

Thank you EVERYONE!!!

If anyone else can think of something feel free to give me a hollar, but I think I'm gonna go try to gather my shattered nerves for now. giggle.

[Sweet Goats]

Joy, first of all, great job I know it is very hard to "go in" when you have never done it before. I think you did the right thing by not waiting for mom to deliver the baby. If you would have waited that first one just might be dead. I know some people are going to yell at me (but hey it works great for me), I have never given Antibiotics after I have gone in mom's. I just believe the as long as I go in with a steral glove, I am ok. I mean do we get antibiotics every time us females go to our Doc for our yearly checks? NOPE I don't. Anyway, The only thing that does have ne concerned is you daie that some of the feces MIGHT of gotten into her. I am not sure what I would do on that. It is not me so I am not sure. That I MIGHT go ahead and to the antibiotics.
For that first born, I think I would have taken him by the back feet and swung him upside down to get anything out of his lungs ot mouth. I had to for the first time ever, use a bulb ear cleaner and suck all the mucus out of a baby.
I give all my babies Nutra Drench when they are born. I do several squirts and If they are a little weak after a few hours I do it again.
I am not sure about the loose fecal, I think it is just the stress of the move, new feed and al that. I would really watch what she is getting and even though she just had babies I would really watch the amount of grain. Give mom as much molasses water as she wants. I have a doe that drinks about 4 gallons of it a day after dhew delivers, and others that really don't drink it at all. The more water she drinks the more milk she will make.
Good Luck, and again you did a great job. :baby04:

[midkiffsjoy]

Giggle. That swinging around the head just pictured in my mind so much like taking a chicken for "a swing" and I cracked up!!! giggle.

I keep thinking that she might have been fine if I'd left her alone but I know that's just second guessing. Mom agrees that I made the right decision at the time. I'm so *freaked* that when Mom called the credit union to make a transfer I yelled at the teller that I'd just given birth to a goat. The teller has Boers so she was like "GO JOY!". What can I say, we live in a rural area. giggle.

I like your idea about the molasses water. What is your ratio?? ? Molasses per gallon? I'll make that up right now and take it to her.

The first time I went in I had gloves on. I took them off to bounce her again (to find out if there were more) and then didnt have another clean pair and went in "al natural" for the second. It wasnt until afterward when I looked down at my hands that I was like....ohhhh that was NASTY!!! giggle. My only wish is that my sister in law could have been here. She'd have puked!!! giggle.

Thank You !!!!

[ONThorsegirl]

I know from experience with calves and sheep the yellow colour I mean crayola yellow crayon yellow colour means the lambs, kids, calves are in stress- prolonged laboring, long delivery, oxygen limited etc.

Congrats on getting the babies out and keeping Momma going and doing great.

Melissa

[LMonty]

I mean do we get antibiotics every time us females go to our Doc for our yearly checks?

No we dont need them. That's because the vagina- which is what the yearly checks are done in- isn't sterile, and is pretty much "self cleaning". So, using clean technique is generaly good enough, and nothing else is needed for a healthy human or other mammal (AFAIK).

BUT (you just knew there had to be a "but" there, didnt you? LOL) when you are going in to get a kid, you are usually going through the vagina and entering into the stretched open cervix. That means you are depositing whatever is on your hands or gloves, and whatever it picks up as it passes through the non-sterile vagina- into the interior of the uterus.

Uterine infections are pretty serious business. As many as 1/4 of women used to die of "childbed fever" from just that- until the "germ theory" and asesptic technique and handwashing came along.

I respect your right to make your choice to handle it as you wish, and I am glad youve had good outcomes so far- but I wanted to mention for our readers that entering the cervix and potentially contaminating it is not like a human pap test, and the risk isnt comparable- the risk of infection is very considerable, especially in a barnyard enviorment. In my 30+ yrs of experience in nursing, when human docs enter the uterus from the inside or even surgically, they usually give a prophylactic antiobiotic.

I definitly wouldnt risk a doe if I could avoid it - Lord knows i make enough inadvertant mistakes! Another thing to consider- if an infection starts, it is much harder to cure than to prevent! By the time they are symptomatic- they are pretty sick. Even if you save the doe, she may have problems conceiving again. Thats why I think its a good idea to use a prophylactic broad spectrum antibiotic, followed by probiotics to restore normal gut flora. YMMV.

[Ark]

Joy, how is she today?
Which goat is it?
You did good!!!!!!!!!!!

[midkiffsjoy]

Originally Posted by Ark

Joy, how is she today?
Which goat is it?
You did good!!!!!!!!!!!

THANK YOU!!! giggle *bows* *curtsy* *bows* grin

It was one of the new goats mom had JUST bought. Her name is Nanny, which confuses me because the kids call mom Nanna, so I keep trying to call the doe Nanna. giggle. Nanny is doing well today. She's resting. Everytime I see her she's laying down but mom is keeping an eye on her. Both of her little bucklings are doing well. There is quite an argument going on here cause I'm not sure I can eat an animal I assisted giving birth to, and it's come down to we can either raise them and turn them into cart goats ...and mom can name them (she wants to name them Romulus and Reimus ....do NOT expect me to know how to spell that) or we can eat them but SHE CAN NOT NAME THEM!!! You do NOT hand out AWESOME names like that to steaks!!!! period. Hamburgers do not have names! grin. The only problem we are having now is that we had to lock Olympia in the pen with Nanny because she wont nurse her kids (so much for SHOW breeding. All the mothering ability has been bred right outta her!) and it's the only way we can get her to not LOOSE her kids. Nanny keeps beating the snot outta Olympia and you can almost hear her thinking...ohhhNO you get AWAY from MY kids!!! You HAVE kids and youre a SUCKY MOTHER!!! giggle. Im and I'll tell you what Katie pulled yesterday. After that I just laid down onthe floor and cried. she's not allowed NEAR the goats anymore!!!

It's been a BUSY week so far!!! Anymore and I'm going to Disney World!!!

giggle.

[Ark]

ok Joy, I have GOT to know what Little Miss Katie did this time!
PM me if you must. LOL

And I agree with you - anything that is going to get eaten gets names like HAM, BACON, BURGER, CHOPS, BREAKFAST, LUNCH, SUPPER, JERKY, SAUSAGE..... it's endless!! :baby04:

[Feral Nature]

I'm speeding through some of these threads so didn't read all the posts thoroughly. Just up to your wrist is not real deep so down fret too much. Sometimes i go to my elbow. When you get a kid out that is a bit slow, rough him up a bit and stimulate him, rub all over hard with a towel, don't be shy! And i swing them too if there is fluid in there, cintrifugal force and all, you can't hurt them. The first thing you do though, before anything, is clean the gunk off the airways the second it comes out so nothing gets sucked into the lungs. Just don't let them lay there to wake up on there own, be aggressive.

[Jim S.]

Wow I just came on this thread, and I MUST add, Joy, that YOU DID GREAT!

[Jim S.]

Ark, we name our slaughter goats Dinner.

[midkiffsjoy]

Originally Posted by Feral Nature

Sometimes i go to my elbow.

You mean theres a THAT deep IN there!!!!!???????!!!!!

[midkiffsjoy]

Originally Posted by Ark

ok Joy, I have GOT to know what Little Miss Katie did this time!
PM me if you must. LOL

And I agree with you - anything that is going to get eaten gets names like HAM, BACON, BURGER, CHOPS, BREAKFAST, LUNCH, SUPPER, JERKY, SAUSAGE..... it's endless!! :baby04:

I'll IM you this evening. I cant admit what she did this time to the list. I was in SUCH SHOCK!!!! *falls to the floor passed out in COMPLETE shock*

[Qvrfullmidwife]

"As many as 1/4 of women used to die of "childbed fever" from just that-"

Ah...they often went from cadavers to laboring women. Not exactly the same. And when a woman in labor is checked, it is the inside rim of the cervix being felt, so yes, on teh verge of intrauterine...and no routine antibiotics there, either. Last but not least, throw in the natural tendencies of the body to slough out fluids, etc after delivery, and the odds of just going in and delivering healthy kids toa healthy mom resulting in infection is pretty low.

(my opinion based upon a few years in goats but mostly 19 years of people midwifery)