Does disbudding "hurt"?

[DocM]

You be the judge...

I just disbudded my two doe kids, one is 10 days old, the other is 2 days old. The first one was small and really didn't get buds until the last couple days, so it worked out fine. The second was huge, and is the same size as the 10 day old kid. One must have cooked longer.

While I was getting the kid box ready, heating up the iron, finding the little clippers, I let the two doelings get aquainted, running around the tack room and playing "queen of the hay bale".

Picked up doeling number one - she immediately started screaming. Was she in pain? No, she wanted to play.

She continued to scream, only slightly increasing in volume, through imprisonment in the box, having her head shaved, marking her buds (hey, whomever suggested the little paint pen markings on the buds - IT WORKS GREAT - especially on black heads!), and finally, through the disbudding procedure itself. Now, I've learned to tune out the screaming, and I have also learned that a fairly aggressive burn means no reburning in a week, so I laid it on. Nice copper rings, popped off the bud and burned the tips. Screaming has not let up since picking up kid.

Let kid out of box. Screaming immediately stopped. Did she look in pain? No, she went right to her half sister, and BUTTED her. Hard. Went right back to playing.

Repeated with number two. Same results.

Does it hurt? It sure can't hurt very much.

Goats don't use their horns to protect themselves from predators, they are prey animals, they run from predators. Bobcats don't attack goats. Bobcats weigh about 35 lbs and are too smart to take on a 150 lb goat. Small kids rarely get more than 6' from their dams. No bobcat is going to be 6' from your goats. They are ambush animals, they attack from the cover of brush, and rarely if ever go more than 15' in an open chase. A goat is going to know a bobcat is in the brush.

Goats use their horns to establish dominance, and they head butt each other regardless of their horned status. To say otherwise is pure myth. More injuries result to the human caretakers of horned goats, than other goats.

If your animals are in danger of being attacked by predators, and 99% of the time, that will be a stray dog, then you should increase your security, not rely on the animal's horns to protect it.

These wild stories of horned goats attacking wild cats - ridiculous. It doesn't happen. Learn the habits of the predators in your area. Put your goats in a secure area at night, preferably with a strong fence, lights, and noise (music is good). Get a dog. Any dog, it doesn't have to be an LGD. Almost any dog will bark when something enters its family territory. Better a dog that protects ME and not just the goats.

Hey, if you like the look of horns, and you don't show, great, leave the horns on your goats. Be responsible about your fences. Do not, however, leave them on your goats in the belief that they will protect themselves with them. A horned goat will be killed just as fast as a dehorned goat. And a dehorned goat won't kill itself hung up in a fence.

[Jcran]

Does a disbudding iron hurt? LIKE HELL!!!! I had to put ice on my thumb and then aloe vera gel and then a BIG GLASS of Sauvignon Blanc before "I" stopped screaming!

[holleegee]

I just wish I had someone to teach me how to disbud. Thats the only thing holding me back.... Anyone near Kansas City Missouri want to show me how its done?

[DocM]

Originally Posted by Jcran

Does a disbudding iron hurt? LIKE HELL!!!! I had to put ice on my thumb and then aloe vera gel and then a BIG GLASS of Sauvignon Blanc before "I" stopped screaming!

Well DUH, on your thumb, but did you try it on your horn buds?? heh heh

[Jcran]

Originally Posted by holleegee

I just wish I had someone to teach me how to disbud. Thats the only thing holding me back.... Anyone near Kansas City Missouri want to show me how its done?

Don't be afraid, DON'T go light, firm pressure is the key, a slow count to 10 and check for the copper colored ring (its pretty darned copper colored so an easy peasy lemon squeezy thing). Oh, and a GOOD pair of leather work gloves; I mean it...see above post 'cause a good wine is a bad thing to have to waste on a burned thumb

[Feral Nature]

DocM, good post.

I pulled a good one last week. I was disbudding some kids and a nut and bolt fell off the disbudding iron. The small peices fell almost through the cracks on the deck where i was working. Instinctively, i quickly bent down to save the little peices from falling through....HOT METAL PEICES! Human skin is much more delicate than horn buds!

[DocM]

I have a twisty wire thing to set the dehorner on, because I don't trust the stand that is attached to it... it routinely falls on the floor, and I routinely bend over and pick it up... Yeah, um, gloves are a great idea.

[Feral Nature]

I had a glove on the other hand

[chamoisee]

Of course it hurts. I'm sure it hurts like hell, and the people who insist that it doesn't (I occasionally run across such stuff in dairy goat mags) are trying to delude themselves and to defend themselves from PETA types.

Yeah, it hurts, but it beats being butchered, which is what happens to all horned goats in my herd; horns=meat.

[AnnaS]

Based on the reactions of my kids (and my own hand "disbudding" last year) I believe disbudding is VERY painful for a few seconds and then, when the nerves burn through, totally painless.

I won't deny that disbudding is a painful procedure. But as DocM points out, the benefits are many and outweight the pain caused.

To non-goat people, I compare disbudding to getting your baby vaccinated. It hurts the baby, it makes you feel like a meanie, but the net benefit is worth the pain.

[goatkid]

Goats really can protect themselves with their horns. My neighbor got a horned Nubian doe from a friend. She has has problems with some type of canine getting into her goat pasture. This doe has fought it off and come away with only a few scratches. The little disbudded doeling I sold her did not fare so well. One night the predator got on the property and carried the hornless goat off. The horned goat was still there, unharmed. I disbud. My goats have a better fence which keeps dogs out. I do understand if my friends who live further up in the mountains prefer horns on their goats.
I do think disbudding kids hurts at the time it is done. I also believe they feel better quickly once it's done and I prefer my goats hornless.

[Feral Nature]

It could be that the horned goat was simply in a pen with more vulnerable goats and therefore the disbudded goat kid was taken first. If all the goats in the pen were horned, one still may have been preyed upon

[hornless]

Originally Posted by DocM

You be the judge...

I just disbudded my two doe kids, one is 10 days old, the other is 2 days old. The first one was small and really didn't get buds until the last couple days, so it worked out fine. The second was huge, and is the same size as the 10 day old kid. One must have cooked longer.

While I was getting the kid box ready, heating up the iron, finding the little clippers, I let the two doelings get aquainted, running around the tack room and playing "queen of the hay bale".

Picked up doeling number one - she immediately started screaming. Was she in pain? No, she wanted to play.

She continued to scream, only slightly increasing in volume, through imprisonment in the box, having her head shaved, marking her buds (hey, whomever suggested the little paint pen markings on the buds - IT WORKS GREAT - especially on black heads!), and finally, through the disbudding procedure itself. Now, I've learned to tune out the screaming, and I have also learned that a fairly aggressive burn means no reburning in a week, so I laid it on. Nice copper rings, popped off the bud and burned the tips. Screaming has not let up since picking up kid.

Let kid out of box. Screaming immediately stopped. Did she look in pain? No, she went right to her half sister, and BUTTED her. Hard. Went right back to playing.

Repeated with number two. Same results.

Does it hurt? It sure can't hurt very much.

Goats don't use their horns to protect themselves from predators, they are prey animals, they run from predators. Bobcats don't attack goats. Bobcats weigh about 35 lbs and are too smart to take on a 150 lb goat. Small kids rarely get more than 6' from their dams. No bobcat is going to be 6' from your goats. They are ambush animals, they attack from the cover of brush, and rarely if ever go more than 15' in an open chase. A goat is going to know a bobcat is in the brush.

Goats use their horns to establish dominance, and they head butt each other regardless of their horned status. To say otherwise is pure myth. More injuries result to the human caretakers of horned goats, than other goats.

If your animals are in danger of being attacked by predators, and 99% of the time, that will be a stray dog, then you should increase your security, not rely on the animal's horns to protect it.

These wild stories of horned goats attacking wild cats - ridiculous. It doesn't happen. Learn the habits of the predators in your area. Put your goats in a secure area at night, preferably with a strong fence, lights, and noise (music is good). Get a dog. Any dog, it doesn't have to be an LGD. Almost any dog will bark when something enters its family territory. Better a dog that protects ME and not just the goats.

Hey, if you like the look of horns, and you don't show, great, leave the horns on your goats. Be responsible about your fences. Do not, however, leave them on your goats in the belief that they will protect themselves with them. A horned goat will be killed just as fast as a dehorned goat. And a dehorned goat won't kill itself hung up in a fence.

AMEN!

[goatkid]

Originally Posted by Feral Nature

It could be that the horned goat was simply in a pen with more vulnerable goats and therefore the disbudded goat kid was taken first. If all the goats in the pen were horned, one still may have been preyed upon

There were just the two goats. The hornless one was smaller and therefore more vulnerable. My friend has not gotten another goat to keep her doe company out of fear she'll lose another kid. The original doe, however, remains unharmed, though my freind does now lock her in the goat house at night.