What would you do with this dog?

[Blossomgapfarm]

We have an 13 mo old Great Pyr, born in a barn and always around sheep. She was raised with our ewe lambs (now over a year old) and does not "play" with them. We have a ram that we got in Aug. when he was 1 yr old. She try to play with him. She KNOWS she is not allowed to do this. She has never hurt him or broken skin.

Two nights ago, while my daughter and I were about 6 inches away, the dog came into the milking room where Willow was with her 1 week old kids. Rosie (GP) ducked her head to the kids and Willow bowed her head and pushed at Rosie. Willow did not ram her or hurt Rosie in any way, she was simply, gently pushing the dog away from her kids. Rosie growled and SNAPPED at Willow. I was shocked. The dog ran before I could catch her. Tonight, I turned around and she was "playing" with a week old lamb - mouthing her I think.

I know that LGD's can take a long time to mature, tend to protect their territory more than the animals, but they have a reputation for not being as aggressive to people. She is great at keeping stray dogs off the property.

I am thinking get rid of the dog immediately - keeping her penned up 24/7 defeats her purpose and I can not afford to feed her if she is not going to work. Family is so attached to her, my daughter (12 yrs) actually defended the dog saying Willow provoked her. Husband wants to wait and see. True, she is still young. We have put a lot into this dog (FOOD, time and children's love.) She does have some good points as well.

So, what would you do? Get rid of her, pen her up until she is at least 18 mo old or let her run? I am not trying to put LGD's down, I think that when they work they are great, I am just at a loss of what to do with ours.

[Idahoe]

If this is her first incident I wouldn't do anything drastic like get rid of her or chain her up. My advice is more like support/commiseration, I only have a Pyr pup and feel concern for your situation.

Since I just got the pup, I've been reading a lot, and would refer you to this website if you don't already know about it: http://www.lgd.org/library.htm .

Sounds like Rosie is going into her adolescence, and is starting to get a "mind of her own". GPs also love babies, and in her adolescent confusion, thinks she "owns" the babies around her, or that she should own them . There's a great article on that site about a sheep who birthed twins, dropped one, walked away, and dropped the other. Meantime, the GP saw the first newborn, licked it clean and lay near it. When Mom came back to claim her lamb, the dog reacted, she thought the baby was HERS.

Also, your reaction to Rosie's snap at the goat must have scared her good if she ran away. Hopefully you scared her enough it made an impression on her.

There are more experienced Pyr owners on this forum, perhaps post this in the Pet Forum, too, the moderator(s) have excellent dog behavior advice too.

[Blossomgapfarm]

The incident with Willow was the first time I have heard her growl and snap in anger - but I work in town and am only with the animals am, pm and weekends. Hubby spends the time with them and though he has seen her get the ram down playing, he has not seen her get angry either.

Rosie knows that I do not tollerate her getting on the animals and she respects me enough to know not to argue with me when I am holding on to her - dealt with the whole who is the boss issue several months ago (thank goodness because I think she weighs more than I do now). Therefore, when she was bad, she knew it and ran so I would not tie her up.

I don't think she loves the babies the way you are thinking (believe me I wish it was that). She sees them as something to play with - not as a living breathing baby. She is not motherly or protective of them at all though I do not believe she would try to hurt the babies. However, I see her behavior as progressing in the wrong direction - only playing with the ram, to snapping at an adult goat, to playing with the babies.

She sure does have a mind of her own. She is great at keeping the stray dogs away which is a problem in this area. She is very pretty, keeps strangers respectful, and my children and husband love her.

Thanks for your reply.
Dawn

[Angie]

that is very odd for great pyrenees. Mine have always taken care of every animal they could find, even fawns which the male brought home and "mothered". I feel for you. I have had to get rid of dogs that didn't play well with my other animals even though they were great dogs otherwise.

[Idahoe]

I don't think she loves the babies the way you are thinking (believe me I wish it was that). She sees them as something to play with - not as a living breathing baby. She is not motherly or protective of them at all though I do not believe she would try to hurt the babies. However, I see her behavior as progressing in the wrong direction - only playing with the ram, to snapping at an adult goat, to playing with the babies.

OK, that's pretty serious . Sorry if I missed that . . . more from reading than years of experience, I'd say that dog sounds real "alpha", which is very good for a Pyr, just a real challenge when they start pushing the limits.

I think firmly re-establishing the *alpha* status with her is critical, and I'm thinking every human in the family needs to work with the dog. There's a lot of great material on dog behavior on the internet, and being a person who isn't real *alpha* but more lovey-indulgent, I had all kinds of dog behavior problems I caused myself b/c I didn't understand dog thinking. I recommend looking at that site for an article on making yourself Alpha.

Probably, once she is "getting it" that she isn't the boss, the other behaviors will diminish. If you are the boss, not her, you are correcting her naughty behavior every time she does it, so establishing alpha will help take care of "specific" behaviors. This is my guess, anyway.

In the meantime, I'd be REAL careful having her around babies or vulnerable animals she might accidentally hurt. Hopefully you can keep them apart without tying her up, with some work on her it should only be temporary.

[Idahoe]

Originally Posted by Angie

that is very odd for great pyrenees. Mine have always taken care of every animal they could find, even fawns which the male brought home and "mothered". I feel for you. I have had to get rid of dogs that didn't play well with my other animals even though they were great dogs otherwise.

I don't have the experience a lot of you have, but I sure have read about GPs having bad behavior, unPyrenees-like, during the second year. I too have heard about GPs bringing home wild babies, even baby robins, but they were mature adult dogs too.

[Mommyto5]

This is very concerning to me because we have committed to buying a pyr. puppy (from someone on this site)...and are picking him up in a few weeks. Since then, we've heard some horrors stories...and some great stories. Are they reliable livestock dogs...or are they just like any other dog...it's all in the training????? I have a golden retriever that I adore...but he's killing our chickens and ducks. My hubby is making me get rid of him, if we get this new puppy. But, now I'm afraid we'll be in the same boat in a year or so!! Should I be concerned? Or, are stories like this one few and far between?????

[Bearfootfarm]

Dogs dont like being pushed around. The only way they have to show displeasure is to growl and snap. Mother dogs do it to pups when aggravated, but it doesnt mean they are trying to hurt them. I see it as NORMAL dog behavior and nothing to get upset about. If the dog starts playing rough with kids then a shock collar will cure that.

[Feral Nature]

We have 4 Pyrenees now. My husband and i swear to each other that we will never be without Great Pyrenees again. They have change the whole atmosphere of the farm and they have changed our lives.

I am thinking that your dog is going through a over-zealous puppy stage. A 1 year old Pyr is still a big pup and not all that knowledgeable compared to a 2 or 3 year old. Does Rosie have another dog to chew on and rough house with? Perhaps she has excess playful habits right now and gets carried away being too lovey dovey with the little lambs. As far as baring her teeth at Willow, i can see that happening if the dog thinks she is protecting the baby from it's own mom...Pyrs have a trememdous attraction and feeling of resposibility towards baby animals, particularly female Pyrs.

Our younger dogs are not permitted to stay with small goats as they can proove to be too rambuctous if the goats are too little, the livestock have to be size appropriate for a pup in training. They are allowed with the free-range baby chicks and hens from birth on (we raise Prys).

And Mommyto5. the absolute WORSE farm dog I ever saw was a Golden retriever...it was a horrible dog and needed to be shot for killing poultry and many of my goats and sheep years ago. it was my neighbors dog....they moved before i could do my civic duty....the triple Ss.

[Blossomgapfarm]

Ok. I will calm down about it a bit We don't have another dog for her to play with but that may be an option. I don't believe she would hurt the babies for anything, she just wants to play and they are jumping around so happily she wants to join in - just a big baby herself. As for her snapping at Willow - I do think it was in anger and/or trying to show Willow that she is boss. Willow and Molly both are very protective of their kids and the dog wants to play.

As for who is Alpha, she has NO DOUBT that I and my husband are. She challenged me (not mean but she did not want to go where I wanted her and she refused.) I ended up rolling her and holding her down, talking very firmly to her then she got up and whet where I led her. After about 3 times on different occasions she got the idea and has not challenged my authority sense.

The shock collar we thought about but then it only works when you are watching her. Still, we may get one. Wonder if it will shock through all of that thick fluff?

Mommyto5, I don't mean to scare you. Mostly I am just frustrated - I can't be home like I want to be and so can not do as much correction as I would like. Research how to teach your puppy to be an LGD, don't just expect her to do her job as a puppy being thrown in with the animals. LGDs, especially Pyrs, have a reputation for taking 18 to 24 months to really come in to their own. Rosie really is a sweet dog and I have no fear of my children (or the grandkids of the neighbors who occasionally wander over) being with her - more important than the animals. Rosie is food protective - very common from what I have heard - and the only time she chases the chickens is when they try to eat her food and then she is just chasing them off not trying to kill them. She does keep the neighborhood dogs away which is her real job. And when we let the sheep out to the pasture to graze and it is time to go in but they are refusing, she will make a wide circle and come up behind them to shepherd them to the barn. Kind of cool really.

Thanks for all your opinions. And for listening to me in my frustration.

Dawn

[Idahoe]

Originally Posted by Mommyto5

This is very concerning to me because we have committed to buying a pyr. puppy (from someone on this site)...and are picking him up in a few weeks. Since then, we've heard some horrors stories...and some great stories. Are they reliable livestock dogs...or are they just like any other dog...it's all in the training????? I have a golden retriever that I adore...but he's killing our chickens and ducks. My hubby is making me get rid of him, if we get this new puppy. But, now I'm afraid we'll be in the same boat in a year or so!! Should I be concerned? Or, are stories like this one few and far between?????

Yes, be concerned but don't catastrophize . . . the Pyr is not as "domesticated" as most other well known dogs. They should have VERY intact instincts to protect, stay vigilant, and patrol. But, they are dogs after all and need to be socialized and trained like any other dog.

They mature slowly like other big dogs, and go through a period like human kids do ((Oooh, I can do this if I WANT to, he he he)). I've read this period involves what amounts to retraining them, or reminding them of who's boss.

If you purchase from a good breeder who knows the Pyr, breeds for temperament as well as conformation, you'll have a good LGD in two years or so. Even at one year, their bark is pretty intimidating, which is enough for smaller predators. My pup is only 15 wks old, and she's 40 pounds of white fluff and sweetness, but her bark is startlingly loud and deep.

I am esp. concerned about my poultry, too, as they are out and about all day, and we have all the usual country predators . . . so I am socializing her to the birds, and correcting the chasing behaviors immediately, and not being naive that she'll just KNOW what to do in a few weeks . It's an investment.

So yes, KNOW that your puppy will be like any other dog, a flapping noisy bird will trigger chasing and playing and if allowed to go on, eating the poor bird once played to death . . . but they can be trained and once mature, are just not the type of dog to kill little things. Even the male Pyr is maternal toward smaller animals, but that is a mature Pyr.

[Idahoe]

Dawn, it sounds like you know what to do and you just needed to check it out with other people . . . Lord knows I'll be there in a while.

One thing my breeder told me, and I've read it/heard it from many others so it must be true . . . don't physically punish a Pyr, their temperament is so independent they don't take it the way most other dogs do. Yesterday I stepped on Brina's foot (she hasn't figured out how to walk "with" me yet, rather walks ON my feet, so . . . ). She yiked, and skittered away, and acted stuck up for a few minutes, like I truly insulted her. Shock collars aren't recommended for the same reason, but I see they've been used on Pyrs, don't know the outcome though. I just heard it spoils their attatchment to you, and that's just the Pyr temperament.

[Hip_Shot_Hanna]

Originally Posted by Blossomgapfarm

As for who is Alpha, she has NO DOUBT that I and my husband are. She challenged me (not mean but she did not want to go where I wanted her and she refused.) I ended up rolling her and holding her down, talking very firmly to her then she got up and whet where I led her. After about 3 times on different occasions she got the idea and has not challenged my authority sense.

It is likely your dog will challenge you again. You see, as dogs grow and mature, they test the waters often. I've seen it many times in a dog that has been previously well behaved.. until they hit 18 months. Then they decide just maybe THEY can be the boss.. and have to learn differently.

It's normal dog pack behavior. The up and coming youngsters will try to push their way to the top of the pack.

My dogs are half GP/half Anatolian, and when my goats butt them in the sides, they yelp.. and they are nearly a year old now. They do NOT growl or bark at the goats...

They have each other to play with, and do often. They also stand guard and bark at night. But they are very submissive to the goats, which is what they are supposed to be I believe.

Good luck with your dog

HSH

[Feral Nature]

As far as training to do well with poultry, my puppy litters are raised with the yard birds. They know no different than the chickens eating out of their bowls from birth and baby chickens being paraded around them with the mother hens. It is the first thing they see when they open their eyes and start crawling around. We have never had a pyr injure a chicken although their has been brief chicken chasing by pups and all it takes is fussing at them from a human and they get real hurt feelings and slink off. They hate to be scolded. That is them testing the water when they are middle sized pups, but the chickens come right back and the pups ignore them, laying down and sleeping in the middle of the flock. The pyrs HATE hawks and buzzards and look skyward barking and chase them off. We take no losses on our free-range birds, for years now and we live out in the boonies with all kinds of predators.

My Pyrs love the goats and little kids. This past week, my friend brought over a bunch of new born kids for me to disbud. Our male pyr hated our australian shepherd coming close during the loud screaming of the kids during the disbudding. he was stuck to the baby goats like glue, baring his teeth every time the Aussie moved...I think he thought the other dog had something to do with making the little goats holler. Remember, this pyr had never seen these baby goats before...we almost couldn't disbud them with the big ol' pyr leaning up against and protecting the little goats. He looked pretty scarey.

[full sun]

I don't have exerience with GP's, but I have had my share of puppies over the years. 13 months is still pretty much a baby, especially for such a large breed. She's still learning and capable of making dumb mistakes. Make sure these dumb things are corrected and I think in about a year, you will have a great dog on your hands.

Jennifer

[Blossomgapfarm]

Thank you to everyone for being so supportive. After sleeping on it and reading your comments I have calmed down a bit. I will be watching closely tomorrow to see what goes on during the day. I know (hope ) that by the end of summer, she should show much more maturity than she is now though still not grown. I did not mean to freak anyone out over this post - truly she has never hurt a soul and I know she is still a puppy. I guess I just needed some comments from those out there with more experience than us to say either "This is normal testing the water, just watch and teach" or "Oh no! In my experience this is a really bad sign." I am glad that the former is what came over. Thanks.
Dawn

[Feral Nature]

Great! give the dog a chance. the male pyr i spoke of in the goat disbudding incident is only 11 months old. We have him and 3 females born to the same parents but younger, 4 months old. The parents disappeared around the first of the year, we are heartbroken as after 3 years, they were highly trained and 100% trustworthy. We could leave the farm for the weekend and know that when we came back, all our livestock would be alive and well. Don't know what happened to the big dogs, someone may have shot them, stole them (how?) or the cougar may have got them...just don't know.

So we had 3 puppies left we had not yet sold...we just kept them all.

[Idahoe]

You lost BOTH parents??? That's terrible! I remember when your female disappeared . . . if it was a cougar (we have them now and then) I hope they gave their lives and took the cougar's in the meantime. Glad you have the "kids" to take their place.

[bbbuddy]

We have 3 mutts from the pound, one is "probably" a Sharpei/shephard cross, one "probably" a Boxer/Pittbull cross, one is a Lab/ Heeler cross.

They are all good with all the critters. We have about 40 birds out loose all day, pot belly piglets running all over, cats, goats, horses. NO fences, except the pig pen that the piglets can get out of, and the goat pen.

When they are little, I make sure they get to smell and lick, up close, little chicks and bunnies, etc. Very very controlled interaction, where no one gets hurt and no one gets yelled at. Gentle, soft guidance. Takes all the mystery out of it. They don't have to do it unsupervised later, the babies are just ho-hum ordinary to them.
It is all in the way you train them, right from the get-go.

When you "think" they are grown, be careful, that is when they are big on the outside, but silly on the inside. After about 2 years old, they are set for life in their actions and temperament.
Of course, the most important thing is YOU being there with the dog ALL the time when they are growing up, and paying attention to all of their interactions with everyone else ALL the time. A lot of time and praise makes for a great dog, even when NOT an LGD breed.

We haven't had a coyote problem in two years. Been here 3, the first year they kept trying to sneak in, now they KNOW the dogs are always here and always protecting.

[thaiblue12]

I have no Pyr experience but I do have alot of dog experience. I think she needs a playmate of her own. If you and your children are not around most of the day I am sure she is very bored. Tying up dogs makes them agressive and many dog attacks happen from tied dogs. A few people I know have tried shock collars and now they have fearful dogs who run and/or pee themselves when they see the collar coming.
She needs training, a friend and/or alot of exercise. For a large breed she is still a puppy. I hope you find something that works for you.
As to Mommyof5 I have a 3 year old Golden neutered male and he would let the ducklings snuggle up to him and peck at him and he would never touch them, chase them etc. But if he were to see a field mouse or gopher he kills them within seconds. Goldens are hunting dogs but I make mine know what he is not allowed to harm and he is fine with it. He is very kind to any animals I "ok" including our ferrets.
Is there anyway to keep him away from your chickens? I hope that you also find a way to keep your dog and your chickens safe.
Dogs need to know who is the boss and what you want from them. If a dog is allow to play with the ram but not with the other animals they aren't sure what is expected of them. If they are left on their own with nothing to do they get into trouble. You have to be consistent and firm.
Good Luck