Dead Twins

[Terre d'Esprit]

I am heartbroken. I have a new doe, got her about 2 months ago, she was bred, but her breeder did not have an estimated due date. She had an ultrasound, and the pregnancy was dated that way, however, she was dated 2 days earlier than another doe that I bought at the same time. The other doe had a due date of Jan 29, and I kept meticulous notes and observations about the changes to her body before labor. I knew exactly when she was in labor, and kept her company all night until she delivered healthy twins at 9 am on the 30th (after I had to go in and pull the babies, as they were malpresented).

The second doe showed no symptoms of labor. She did not bag up, she did not rise and lie down repeatedly, stretch her back, yawn, go off feed-- ANYTHING. I put her in a kidding stall, and continued to observe her at feeding times, etc, and again before bed. I noticed nothing different.

Yesterday morning I came into the barn to feed, and and she had given birth to 2 doelings, both were dead. I AM HEARTBROKEN!!!

I am going to call the vet today, but here is what I know, and I wonder if you have any insight:

The doe had very little milk, even after kidding. I got about 1 cup of colostrum from her initially, about a quart total for the day. She seems normal-- passed the afterbirth, no temperature, not acting any differently, eating fine.

The kids were cold, but not frozen (the temperature outside was -8). The placenta was removed from the babies, but not eaten or gone. She was licking and cleaning one, which was cleaner than the other, but was not completely clean. Neither one looked as though they had even tried to get up-- they were lying right where they were born. The placenta did not look bloody or full of meconium or anything out of the ordinary. I am quite certain that they did not try to nurse.

I am really beating myself up about this. I normally have a web camera on the goats, but I am changing providers and did not have it on that night. I was vigilant about checking her, as I thought it was likely that she was close, but really did not suspect (other than the ultrasound date) because she was not showing any symptoms of impending labor at all.

I don't know if they died of exposure-- that seems to be the most likely cause. How long could they have survived (they were inside, in a deep straw bed, but still in the cold barn)? But what about a late-term abortion or still birth? It seems strange that they did not move from where they were born, even though she was cleaning/had cleaned them. And the fact that she had no milk seems strange to me. Plus, her colustrum was very thin and white, milk-like. Not thick and creamy like the other doe's. If it was a late-term abortion, what could have caused it?

I am reading up on this, calling the vet, etc., but I wanted to post and ask you good people for any ideas also. I want to try and find out the exact cause, be it my ignorance and negligence, or some sort of illness that needs to be treated, so that it does not happen again.

Thanks in advance.

T

P.S. What about drying the doe up? Again, I will check other resources too, but do you milk her out a little each day? Do you just leave her with a full bag? (Seems so uncomfortable for her!) I did milke out all of the colostrum I could get out.

[mygoat]

Did she come into milk, then? I wouldn't use her colostrum untill you knew the reason the kids died... Most likely it was exposure, but it COULD have been a disease or something else...

For drying her up, I'd milk her out once a day, for about a week. Then, start milking every other day, then once a week, etc...

Sorry about the twins. It's horrible to loose the babies.

[nehimama]

My sweetie, Lily, a first-freshener, had a late-term abortion a couple of weeks ago. She had them three weeks too early, and they were both malpresented. Nearest my mentor and I can figure is that the extreme cold may have caused the unfortunate event. She had two beautiful bucklings that never drew a breath.

As my original intention for her was to be a milking doe, I went ahead and began milking her. She is milking beautifully now.

Were you planning to milk your doe? I'm very sorry for your/her loss. These things are heartbreaking. Please don't beat yourself up. There's probably no way you could have prevented this.

(((hugs to you and your doe)))

NeHi

[Terre d'Esprit]

Thank you to both of you. : ) She is a boer goat, so we do not intend to milk her. Her udder is larger this morning, but I have not milked any more out of her than the colostrum I got yesterday. I assume she is making milk, but she is not anywhere near as large as the other doe (her kids are 3 weeks old).

The other doe's babies are bottle babies because of the extreme cold. They, too, were born on an extremely cold night. I think I will remember to either sleep in the barn or have a cam/monitor on those nights from now on. Someone gave me that advice, and I thought that they were joking. My first kidding experience shows that it's the honest truth.

Thank you both again.

T

[celadon]

We all learn by our mistakes. Sorry you lost the babies. I am sure it has happened to all of us in one way or another. Count your blessings. You have the other two.

[mary,tx]

Some goats simply do not show any signs. I have one Nubian who gets a "look in her eye" before she is going to kid. That's what I go by. I don't think it's your fault. Would you really have stayed in the barn with that kind of cold? The cold would be my guess, at that extreme. Maybe next year they can be bred for later in the spring.

I had a couple of goats this year kid at 10 months due to an "accident". I thought I'd dry them right off, but was advised that would mess up their metabolism, so did not, and have been glad to have the milk. They are dairy goats, though, so I don't know if that makes a difference. Still, I think you should milk her out until you get some more advice.

mary

[goatkid]

Sorry you lost the babies. They most likely died of hypothermia. When it's really cold out, it doesn't take long at all for newborn kids to get so chilled that they cannot get up to nurse. It's that first colostrum that gives them the energy to stay warm. Boer goats don't make as much milk as dairy breeds. It's not always as obvious when they are going to kid. Just last week. I was helping a friend with her Boers. One of the does kidded a couple hours after I left there and she was eating and showing no signs of labor when I saw her. In that case, she had an 18 lb doeling on her own, but prolapsed so bad she had to be put down. The doeling lived. Boers dry up alot easier than dairy goats. If you have any other does due soon, who you suspect may be having triplets, you may want to milk this doe to keep her in milk in case you want to graft a kid onto her. If you are wondering if babies are early, check the teeth. In full term kids, they should have erupted. In preemies, there is usually a fair amount of skin over the front teeth.

[annie716]

goatkid, thanks for the teeth info hadn't heard that before.

T. So sorry for your loss, we had a doe this fall that delivered twins early, they were beautiful kids but like yours didn't make it. The temp was in the high 40's and I found the first one before it got cold but neither one had the strength to even breath on their own let alone nurse. May not have had anything to do with the temp but how developed they were. I have a weak one today I'm praying for!

[Terre d'Esprit]

Goatkid, THANK YOU for that information! I was not able to reach the vet today, but I did look at the babies' teeth, and they had not yet broken through. They are definitely smaller than the previous set of twins we had, maybe 3-4 pounds, but they don't "look" premature (they have hair, they are fully formed, etc.). But the teeth are definitely not yet broken through.

I still feel terrible, but feel a tiny bit better knowing that maybe they wouldn't have lived even if I was there to help momma. I hope that doesn't sound bad...

T

[nehimama]

Goatkid, great info about the teeth! I'd have never thought of that. In Lily's case, the kids were well-formed, but very small, and not very well furred. I don't have the bodies any more, but will know, if there is a next time, to check this out.

NeHi

[Dee]

I remember my breeder asking me if the eyes were white, cloudy looking. She said that usually means it never took a first breath.

Sorry you lost your babies. I usually leave the bag unless it looks very uncomfortable, then I take out only a couple of squirts just to releave some pressure.

My Boers don't like their udders touched so it's a real experience trying to take some out, never mind trying to save some of that milk. I usually have their heads locked with me straddling their bodies facing the back end, with my legs pressed against their outstretched hind legs, reaching under the tail to get to the udder.

[white eagle]

Sorry for your loss.