strange gray circles around kid's eyes??

[Hawkfamily]

We had 4 orphan goats from the same group (don't know the mom or dad). They appeared to be Saanen (but maybe have some pygmy mixed in). They are now about 3 or 4 months old and, until recently, have been all white.
One of them started to get gray marks around his eyes. (we thought it was maybe from peeking through the fencing at first). But, the markings are getting darker and I just noticed that one of the others is also getting this.

I am curious if this is a symptom of an illness, disease or deficiency - or whether their coats are just changing colour at this age. I haven't been able to find anything to confirm either way. Are we missing something here????
Please help!

Jodi

[Idahoe]

I have a white Saanen/LaMancha wether who was pure white at 3 months when I bought him and his mama, and overnight a few weeks later, he had brownish markings around his eyes and down his nose . . . thought he'd been rooting in the mud, but now, it's obvious he has his mama's face and his daddy's body.

Possibly, they are just growing in their adult pelt, but I am new to goats and see new stuff all the time. Hoping for the best!

[LomahAcres]

Our Sannan/Nubian doe has a small black spot by one of her eyes, not too noticeable.

I know of one lady who found in feeding more copper to her goats it made the black ones blacker and some others broke out in darker spots they didn't have before.

As long as they're not balding, reveling grey skin (but I think the skin would pink around the eyes of a white goat?) I wouldn't worry about it.

[DocM]

Agree with other posters, I have a yearling lamancha that was born pure white but now has dark around her eyes and on her lips (do goats have lips?). It gives her quite the Cleopatra look. I have to wonder about a saanen pygmy cross.... not that it couldn't happen of course, more like "how'd they do that?" wonderment.

[Hawkfamily]

LOL - not so sure of the mating ritual of a Saanen/pygmy, but I am sure that a horny male would find a way ( of any species, really... lol).

The only reason that we are thinking Pygmy now is because they seem pretty small, compared to a younger set of orphans that we have at the same time, but they might be stunted for other reasons (or not at all).
If they are getting colour on their faces (which I am very very happy to hear!! (that they're not likely sick with anything)), they are likely mixed with something other than Saanen, though, yes?? Saanens are predominantly white, are they not? We have some purebred Saanens that are all white.

p.s. DocM - I like your rainbow flag. I had a company here in Vancouver for a few years called Rainbow Soup that made all things hand-crafted for the rainbow crowd. <wink, wink>

Jodi

[DocM]

I just display it to bug people, heh. I've started a trend too.. I've seen at least 3 more "flags" since I put it up.

I have pure white lamanchas, and I've seen a pure white alpine, so I am not sure that the white means they're sannen, especially if they're kind of small. All the saanens I've seen are huge, even the kids being about twice the size of my lamancha kids.

[Patty0315]

White is a dominent color in goats. Saanens can also be colored they are called sables.

[Jillis]

One of my white goats, and one of my gold goats, who were both displaying symptoms of possible copper deficiency (compounded by the fact that the person who got my my first goats told me to feed them sheep and goat pellets! I learned!) developed beautiful black stripes on theiur faces and the gold one got a faint black fringing on the tip of her tail!

This was after I gave them very small amounts of copper sulfate powder for a few weeks, also switched their grains and got them the Sweetlix Meatmaker minerals for goats. Other signs of possible copper deficiency also disappeared.

[Liese]

I'd like to put in a caution here about using the copper sulfate. Not that it isn't effective, it is very much so and therefore if your goats aren't truly copper deficient ot only marginally so you could inadvertantly overdose and poison them. I am not speaking from experience but from information gotten from Practical Goat forum on Yahoo. There as been a recent thread on using this. If you are interested in using copper sulfate I would suggest that as good reading. best to all, Liese

[henfruit]

why not feed them a good feed from blue seal that is blended for them? it has all the good stuff they need.

[Jillis]

Yes, Liese, one must absolutely use care in giving copper sulfate. I used the dosage given by Pat Coleby in "Natural Goat Care", about 1/7th of a tsp. per goat per day!

I had not had done a liver biopsy, so I was going by symptoms only.

However, even given that caveat...goats apparently have a higher need for copper than we may realize. Pat Coleby states that a study was done wherein a goat was given copper sulfate free choice, and consumed so much that according to their best knowledge, she should have had problems from too much copper sulfate. But instead, this goat was healthier than usual and lived a full, long life!

Copper sulfate, according to Pat Coleby's book, also provides tremendous protection against worms. By being toxic to them, and also by bolstering the goats natural immunity. It is also very important to healthy fertility and gestation. There are other minerals that need to be given in proper propertion to each other in order for absorption to occur, which is why it is best to give supplements such as kelp powder and black oil sunflower seeds, which are high in the natural nutrients essential to goat health, in a form that will not tox them out, and is easily absorbable by them.

I was very cautious in my dosing of my goats, but I was astounded by the results! I went from a herd of sickly, motheaten goats that were not thriving well, to a herd of beautiful, healthy, shiny-coated animals that thank God are all thriving well this season. I am sure it is not all attributable to getting their copper levels were they needed to be, but I personally have a strong conviction that this played a major role in their becoming the animals they are today. I no longer supplemented copper sulfate powder after just a few weeks, because the goat pellets and the minerals I had switched to seem to be doing the job. Most of the worst of my goats came from sub-standard care, and it showed most in their need for extra minerals to get into condition. When I first put out the kelp meal and Sweetlix they devoured it continuously. Then, they went to a less demand of these supplements. I am noticing, though, that as they advance in pregnancy, the demand is rising again.

I hope that helps. I am sure some of the far more knowledgeable and experienced breeders on this forum will have much better info to contribute than I do. I have learned so much from them!

[Patty0315]

Alot of goat breeders are now using copper boluses including myself. Most in the nutrition field thought the goats demmand for copper was lower several years ago. I am not sure the industry as a whole has caught up. Lots of good feeds out there . If the feed had everything they needed we would not have to use minerals or bo-se shots or b vitamins. It also depends on how much feed they get and eat.

Patty

[Liese]

Jillis, Does Pat Coleby give some guide lines so that you can know when to start, how long to dose and how to tell if the goat has had enough before something bad happens and now there is a different problem to fix?
Since we have enough iron in our water to interact with the copper pipes I have been looking into how iron in water affects the goats utilization of copper.
Liese

[Terry W]

hmm, Pat Coleby also indicated that small amounts of copper can be given to sheep-- and a fellow breeder did this-- greatly improved her herds health and fertility rates. The lady may have some unconventional treatments-- but if one is carefull and attentive, and the treatments work, then it seems that one doesn't always have to listen to the PhDs at the land grant colleges!!!

When su[pplementing-- remeber what goes in, eventually comes out-- so if your animals are on pasture, or you spread manure, you are also supplementing the pasture areas-- this is known as "importing fertility" in the soil science area-- a good management program will have your animals putting what the soil needs to produce good forage directly onto the soil-- and then they get to resorb it-- see the cycle?

[DocM]

I just switched to bolus method and did all my goats. I have a question now. The information I have found said it will last 5-6 months. What about growing goats? I measured the copper in the copasure as to what their current weight is. I did 3 younger does, about 8 months old, and I expect they'll gain 25 or more pounds in the next 5-6 months. Should I redose them soon or just wait and do them all in June as planned?

[Jillis]

Terry W, good information...in my case, I don't have any pasture yet, unfortunately. We cut cedar and tamarack brush for them, and give them any tree leaves that are not toxic when we cut our firewood.

But we must rely on mineral supplements...

Liese, I do not know the answer to your question about the iron interacting with the copper pipes...I do know that we had a recent thread on which it was made clear that there could not be enough copper in the drinking water either through leachings from the pipes or from the ground water itself...

I do remember reading about the connection between certain minerals and their effects on the absorption of any of them, but it is a while ago now and no longer fresh in my mind.

I based my dosage on what Pat Coleby recommends for all goats, not just those who are displaying a possible deficiency by symptoms or who have been diagnosed by liver necropsy. In her opinion, and she may be wrong, it is next to impossible to toxify a goat with copper. Others have different opinions on that.

There is an organic goat keeper in our area who is famous for her aged raw milk cheeses. She has a cheese cave that is really nifty! When she mixes up her formula for her babies, she puts the tiniest pinch of copper sulfate powder into 5 gallons of the formula. She says they absolutely must have that. This is one of those breeders of show goats who keep meticulous records, do all the math of grain rations to milk production, approaches everything anally and scientifically. Her goats are a sight to behold! I hope to purchase a doeling or two from her this year, if I can afford to.

DocM, I have read differing opinions of bolusing copper too. Some experts felt you could not accurately predict the degradation of the copper boluses, that they often released at very differing rates due to perhaps acidity levels in the digestive tract and etc. That's one of the reasons I chose to use the powder. But I personally, just from my very limited reading and experience, would worry a little more about them not getting enough than about them getting too much. You can't predict with copper boluses, because once they are inside, you can't measure dosage, or control the rate of release, and then again, there is the quandary you mentioned about the goats being in a state of growth that might affect dosage to weight.

With the powder, you can just put a little bit, 1/7 of a tsp, on their tongue, down it goes! The feed store gave me a big bag of it from a ripped sack, didn't cost me anything, I put it in a big plastic whey protein container. I'll never use it all up in my lifetime! But it won't go bad, so, there it sits.

[Liese]

Hi Jillis, Never mind about the iron/copper pipe thing, I didn't mean to steer you off the topic. I am interested to know what symptoms Ms Coleby is relying on to determine when to treat with Copper sulfate, how do you determine the length of treatment and how do you know when to stop, the presumption here is that this is not a constant addition to their feed/mineral. thanks, Liese

[smwon]

Geesh this is an OLD thread! But I just wanted to answer that last question - perhaps someone will find it helpful.

Pat Coleby gives the copper sulfate to all her goats year round, as a supplement along with dolomite, sulfur and kelp... It isn't just given when symptoms show a need for it.

Personally, I won't give the bolus, I have more control with the copper sulfate powder.