Need "Goats 101" Class, Please :)

[LauraKoz]

I come to you all as a humbled, entirely-equine person, with little to no experience in the goat department

The only experience I have with goats is having them thrown into a stall at one of the barns I was managing at a camp. I managed to feed them, take them out for exercise (although I was less than successful at teaching them to walk on a harness/leash ), and even trim their hooves.

I'm looking at bringing a few extra critters into a summer camp environment and have a few (thousand) questions for those of you out there interested in educating me:

1. How often do they need their feet trimmed?
2. I was told that if you didn't have a goat-proof pen, you could stake them for a week and then not expect to have any problems with them wandering off. True-ish?
3. Will they get along well with a) horses? b) sheep? c) cows?
4. How does deworming a goat work? Same product as horses, same schedule?
5. What does their diet consist of? With the non-working horses, they are given a diet completely consisting of forage (if able to maintain their weight), not needing any concentrates... same with goats if given access to hay and grasses, bushes, etc..?
6. Any special needs (diet or otherwise), that a non-goat person wouldn't think of (They will have access to the same salt and mineral blocks as the horses, do they need their own?)
7. One breed or type (e.g. dairy versus non-dairy) easier to deal with (in terms of needs) or more apt to be people/kid-friendly and enjoy attention?
8. What are some important things to keep an eye out for when it comes to goat health? (e.g. With horses, one might mention snotty noses, listlessness, colic symptoms, etc).

Thank you all very much and I'm sure you'll soon see similar cow and sheep posts, so feel free to respond about those critters here, as well

ETA: And if anyone is in Alabama/Georgia and looking to send a critter or two off to summer camp to get them out of their hair, I'd be happy to provide room and board

[Laura Workman]

Kindly check out a basic goat book, "Storey's Guide to Raising Goats" or "Raising Dairy Goats the Modern Way." Also known as "Goats 101." Both titles are the same book, just different vintages. The book is by J. D. Belanger. After you've read the book, and have at least some idea of what you're getting into, then please do return here with more specific questions.

1. Depends on hoof growth.
2. Don't stake goats. They are easy prey, and they can get tangled up easily.
3. Depends on goat/horse/cow. Sheep are generally OK.
4. Many, many options, depending on what parasites your goat is carrying and what works on those parasites in your area.
5. Read the book.
6. Read the book.
7. Depends on the goat more than the breed.
8. Read the book.

Don't take on an animal until you have some idea what you're looking at and how to care for it. You could wind up with an animal that's carrying an incurable disease that can be transmitted to humans and can contaminate your facility for years. Sheep and cows also require some fundamental knowledge beyond what someone can type into a post in a few minutes, so please spend a little time at your local library. You can supplement your library research by looking through the posts on this board, once you have some idea what you're looking at. After that, if you still have questions, ask away.

[LauraKoz]

Well I guess I can't be too terribly surprised at your response, as I might have made a similar one to certain equine-related inquiries, however...

Let me clarify that in no way was I asking, "Please tell me everything there is to know about <insert critter here> so that I can acquire herds of them and label myself as an expert, all in a matter of days".

I am well aware that there are a lot of factors and variables when it comes to dealing with livestock of any kind. I have looked around a bit on this forum as well as done some (I will admit, not much) researching online, but was drawn to this forum, thinking that, as I am happy to answer questions for someone less than knowledgable about horses, that another poster would be happy to inform me of the basics when it came to goats.

Perhaps I am just totally clueless when it comes to these critters, but I could have easily answered all of those questions as if they applied to horses, pre-empting it with a, "These are all estimates, each horse is different, might I point you here for additional, in-depth information".

Regarding question 4, of course the same answer can be applied to horses, but in general, a vet could recommend a deworming schedule and program that would be pertinent to the location of the animals --I was simply trying to find out if they were similar to horses in their needs, or if they would be requiring more or less medicating.

Questions 5 and 8: I was not expecting a 'point on how-to for feeding goats, but perhaps a, "Yes, they will require a mix of concentrates and forage which depends on the individual needs of the goat"... that would have sufficed; at least it would have given me a place to start when researching some more.

Question 6: I think I phrased it wrong, but I was more trying to feel out any deficiencies or toxicities that were particular to goats (e.g. Selenium deficiencies in horses in particular regions). I apologize for not being clearer with that.

I appreciate the information about staking the goats. I have very reliable guard dogs and have never had issues with smaller livestock before, but would not have thought about the tangling issue after someone telling me it was rather 'standard' with goats. That's what I came here for

And let me also clarify that when I am talking about 'borrowing' sheep, etc for a month or so, I would only accept the stock if everything about the individual livestock, my facilities, and my program were discussed beforehand. I am not interested in having someone drive up and unload random critters in the drive, I was hoping to have a partnership with someone that I was able to call and ask for advice, etc --someone willing to help educate me so that I might be able to educate the campers involved in the program.

I hope I haven't scared anyone off, as I do look forward to more responses.
Thanks again :baby04:

[Laura Workman]

Okey dokey, then. We'll try it again. First off, for seriously basic basics, here's a link to a page on my site: http://www.glimmercroft.com/About.html . For a much more detailed site, one of my favorites is the Fias Co Farms site. It's huge: http://fiascofarm.com/goats/index.htm

1. Normally every month or so.
4. I generally use Ivermectin horse paste at twice the horse dose. So a 150 pound doe gets the same amount I'd give to a 300 pound horse. Or I use the Cattle and Swine injectible, given orally, delivering an equal amount of medication. I believe the dosage is on the Fias Co Farms site - I can't remember it just now. In some areas, parasites are developing resistance to Ivermectin.
5. The link to my site tells how I feed. Others feed differently. Many things work well.
6. Goats should have a loose mineral. The best, IMHO, is Sweetlix Meat Maker. It is low in salt, and therefore delivers more mineral because the goats will eat more before satisfying their salt craving. I also use the Equine Micro 100 block. Other horse blocks do not have adequate minerals. Copper deficiency is extremely common in goats. They need LOTS of copper. Washington is also a Selenium deficient area, so make sure any mineral has lots of both. Vitamin E helps Selenium absorption, so a couple times a year, I feed the Selenium-E supplement for horses to my goats, in addition to the loose minerals. So far, doing this, I haven't found it necessary to give the Bo-Se shots most goatkeepers use.
7. Naturally, a working goat will require more attention to its nutritional needs than a non-working goat, such as a wether. As to friendliness, it really depends on the goat. I've had very friendly dam-raised kids. I personally find bottle babies more demanding of attention than I like, but lots of people like that.
8. Not really sure how to answer this. Basically, if the goat isn't acting normal, it's a good idea to figure out why, just like with horses. Bloat is a fast killer. Pneumonia is bad. Poisoning is bad. Hoof rot can cause problems. The list goes on for a while. Again I would refer you to the Fias Co Farms site.

[Hip_Shot_Hanna]

Hi Laura

You ask some good questions that are difficult to give short answers to

I can help a little bit with the feed question from a dairy goat perspective, but not from a meat goat perspective. Although a goat is a goat, it's purpose can change the feeding program.

For my dairy goats, the kids get a grain mix with an approximate 16% protein level until they are a year old as do the milking does. All goats get alfalfa hay at the moment, and the milking does need that for the level of calcium in it.

A buck does not need any grain unless he is breeding the girls - hay is sufficient for him. Hay is also sufficient for dry does, if they are bred I start giving them about a pound of grain a day starting at the 100th day until birth. (I don't just start dumping a pound of grain in their box but gradually increase it over the course of a couple of weeks until that is what they are getting)

The thing to remember about goats is that they are not really grazers but browsers - so if you choose to feed them coastal or grass hay, they will do better with something like alfalfa pellets added to their diet.

I have fed my goats 16% horse sweet feed, which they like quite well. Loose minerals fed free choice are better than a mineral block.

As to the question of tying them out - I have done so with some success in days gone by. I do not do that now. But if anyone told you that you can tie them out for a week and they won't wander when you untie them, um.... perhaps it would be best to define wander.

They WILL go through or over or under your fence, but they would probably show up around feeding time in the evening once they are used to living at your place. I find it usually takes more than a week for them to settle in and feel like this is home.

Easy handling of goats does depend on a number of factors. One is how the goat was treated as it grew up. The second thing is the goat's individual personality. I have three that want to rub on me and lean on me and love to have their necks scratched. I have two that I don't consider difficult to handle, they just don't crave being petted. I have to grab their collars to be able to touch them. Another thing that affects their handleability (did I just coin a new word there?) can be breeding season and hormones.

Also.. if you aren't aware, two goats are much much happier than one. They are herd animals

Now, here's a site that you may find helpful -
http://www.dairygoatinfo.com/viewfor...cc44f22dc11671

[DocM]

1. How often do they need their feet trimmed?

I check my goats about once a month, some grow faster than others, they grow faster at different times of the year.

2. I was told that if you didn't have a goat-proof pen, you could stake them for a week and then not expect to have any problems with them wandering off. True-ish?

I will stake some of mine out for hours at a time, not days for sure. They go back in the barn at night. I may stake out a few goats near a an area that's getting brushy and I want to trim it back using goat power. You have to be careful with this because goats are very good at tangling themselves up. I use swivels at both ends and check them often. Some people will say to never stake them out, some will say that's the only way their goats get to graze. I have an alpine doe that can clear a 6' fence, so when she's out, she's always staked. She's going on 7 and we haven't had a mishap yet. Use common sense.

3. Will they get along well with a) horses? b) sheep? c) cows?

I graze mine with all of the above, the only problem is that each has different mineral requirements so you must provide minerals to each species separately. Sheep will have a toxic reaction to minerals with a copper content high enough for goats/cattle, and some minerals and feed contain cocci medications that can kill a species it wasn't intended for.

4. How does deworming a goat work? Same product as horses, same schedule?

I worm my horses 3X a year, and do my goats as needed. I have a microscope and do fecals every other month or so on each goat.

5. What does their diet consist of? With the non-working horses, they are given a diet completely consisting of forage (if able to maintain their weight), not needing any concentrates... same with goats if given access to hay and grasses, bushes, etc..?

Different types of goats (meat opposed to dairy), genders, stage of life, all have different diet requirements. Fresh water, good hay, and minerals suffice for most animals, but growing, pregnant, and lactating goats need more nutrition. I never consider brush in the nutritional food chain of my dairy goats because they aren't out in brushy areas enough to consider it. That's more like a treat on top of what they usually get. My meat goats do great when they have access to brushy areas, sometimes they won't touch the hay feeder for days in the spring and early summer when new growth is abundant.

6. Any special needs (diet or otherwise), that a non-goat person wouldn't think of (They will have access to the same salt and mineral blocks as the horses, do they need their own?)

They need their own. My goats do like to lick the horse blocks when they have access, but it isn't the right balance for them. Goats do better with loose minerals.

7. One breed or type (e.g. dairy versus non-dairy) easier to deal with (in terms of needs) or more apt to be people/kid-friendly and enjoy attention?

All goats have about the same level of needs, and individual breeds are personal choice. Obviously dairy goats will need to be milked, but all goats have to be wormed, fed, and looked after. My experience with goats: Nubians are loud and needy, but friendly. Alpine breeds are rather hyper, but friendly too. I like my lamanchas best because they're not too big to be intimidating (when we first started, my kids were very small), they're friendly, and not very loud, unless they see you with a bucket in hand. Pygmies are cute, friendly, and useless. Nigerians are very friendly, small, and good with kids. Meat goats are friendly to an extreme, and big enough to hurt you sometimes without trying, They don't give milk long enough to be useful, but crossed with dairy breeds they're good mothers and most of time give milk longer than their meat parent. Sometimes, for the small homestead, a good crossbred is best, they usually have good temperament, in my experiece are my best mothers, and xbred babies tend to be hardier.

8. What are some important things to keep an eye out for when it comes to goat health? (e.g. With horses, one might mention snotty noses, listlessness, colic symptoms, etc).

When a goat stops eating, it's sick. Until then, it's a toss up of whether symptoms you see are serious or not. Sickness and the ability to recognize when an animal's behavior isn't normal comes with experience. It's a steep learning curve, and most goat owners have to just go through that. Knowing what to look for - mostly behavioral signs, and a good vet, are priceless comodities.

[TexCountryWoman]

Here's a great place for info

www.dairygoatinfo.com

check out the goatkeeping 101 section as well as the main page for questions

my user name is "Feral Nature" there

[LauraKoz]

Sorry it took me so long to get back over here but I made it...
Thank you all for the info --and Laura and Diane, thanks for the links, I'll be sifting through all of that information for quite awhile.

As for Storey's, I'll definitely be that annoying customer that sits down in the middle of the bookstore and reads for hours. I love Storey's guides and I'm excited there is one about goats.

If anyone has any tips on where I can go 'shopping' for loaners, please let me know. I had a wonderful offer from someone with two pygmies in Savannah, alas that is a bit too far to drive