First dehorning - blood!

christij · #1 01/26/07, 03:48 PM

So we were going to dehorn both of Miracle's kids today, but we only did king b/c he started to bleed. We didn't use the kid tip on him b/c I thought his buds were to big...(I did lots of reading on the process but couldn't really find a lot of choosing the tip that didn't leave room for interpretation.) it also turns out the used dehorner I bought that the screw is rusted in and won't come out of the current tip. (On another note while DH was trying to take the tip off he took out two screws that appeared to hold a plate that I think went to the S/D lever although the kit instructions said it did not come with a solder...?)
SO we go about the process and there was a small amount of blood and a little bit more by the time I got him to mom. He has now scrathced the top off of one of the buds and it is bloody..... how should I treat this? I have Furnall on hand but was planning on spraying tomorrow AM.
Jewels buds are smaller then the bucks so I am thinking we should wait until her's fill it out more but they will be two weeks on Monday.......
Should the iron go completly to the outside of the bud or just over the top but not directly to the skin and you swivel to burn the edges to the skin?

Poor king!

susanne · #2 01/26/07, 03:51 PM

christi if it is bleeding you can go and cauterize it with the iron.
after i burn the buds i always put furall on it immideatly

i also would not wait longer than two weeks to burn the horn buds. less risk of scurs.

moonspinner · #3 01/26/07, 05:05 PM

If you're seeing the horn buds popping through it's time to disbud. A two week old doe is definitely ready and the bigger they get, the tougher and longer it takes to do the job. You want to make sure you're getting the entire base of the horn or you may end up with scurs.

oberhaslikid · #4 01/26/07, 05:24 PM

Here is a few good sites if this will help you

www.fiascofarm.com/goats/disbudding.htm - 51k
http://www.bedford.extension.psu.edu...Disbudding.htm
http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/4H/meat...ing/disbud.htm

ozark_jewels · #5 01/26/07, 05:36 PM

I wouldn't wait any longer on Jewel. Her horn buds will naturally be smaller since she is a doe, but as long as you can feel them, you can disbudd them. Its easier and takes less time, the smaller they are.
Its hard to visualize what your describing......lets see. I clip the hair around the buds, then set the *very hot* iron directly over the buds(if the buds are small it fits right over them, if they are bigger, it sets a little on top of them), rotate it slightly, and after about 4-5 seconds pull it off. I then pop the top of the buds off with a thumbnail, and set the side of the hot tip onto the top of the bud, and burn that down using pressure for about 5 seconds. Then I set the iron on top again just long enough to get a good ring(4-6 seconds *maybe*), and its done. I immediately spray their buds with Furrall to cool them and let them go back to momma or give them a bottle.
I have found that popping the bud off and burning it down with the side of the iron really helps to prevent scurs.
Wish I could be of more help....

christij · #6 01/26/07, 07:01 PM

Ahh.. I see the problemo! The kid tip would of fit perfect okay not perfect but would of been the better choice, but I don't know if we can get it on.... I think the one we used was to big thus getting more skin and leading to the blood. I will spray with Furnall when I go out tonight and take pics of little kings sore head and see what you think. The top of the bud did come off of one side but it was bloody. I will have to see if I can find one to watch DD for me so that we can get Jewel finished this weekend if we can get the kid tip on.

Ick... I use to get so upset when rescued pits (from STL city and then the onoes from Hurricane Katrina) came in with home ear/tail crops

-- poor King I thought we had both read enough. I couldn't get the camera without sitting off DD -- it's fleshy on top and one of them is kinda scabbing looking. I will try for pics in the AM. And if we really messed up and there is a chance he would scur should we do him again this weekend - my tummy flip flops at the thought...

Blue Oak Ranch · #7 01/26/07, 10:35 PM

I'd like to see the pics before I would comment on your kids, but I'll add this -

Don't wait if you see scurs forming to re-disbud! I put it off because I hate doing it....and finally re-burned two bucklings at three months of age. BIG mistake! It was the worst experience I've had with goats - they're bigger, stronger, and LOUDER than at a few days old. MUCH more stressful, for both me and the goats! I should have re-burned them as SOON as I felt those little scurs popping up at 7 weeks or so.

If your disbudding iron has an S/D setting, I'd make SURE you have it set to "D" for your procedures. If it's broken or missing, I'd try to fiddle with it to make sure it's always on the hottest setting. I had knocked the lever halfway once, and did one horn bud...and wondered why it wasn't heating up again properly.

I modified my Rhinehart X50 by switching out the bolt and plate that holds the tip. The plate is now thick copper and the bolt that holds it on is heavy brass. The iron heats up rocket hot, and the actual disbudding part takes only four or five seconds - much shorter time to a good copper ring. The kid hardly has time to make a noise.

Good luck with your disbudding!

Cheers!

Katherine

DocM · #8 01/27/07, 12:56 AM

I disbud all my dairy and meat kids before they're a week old, does and bucks. Shave their head so you can see the buds forming. Use a kid box because otherwise they're moving all over and you can't get a good press. Sometimes mine bleed a little when the bud gets knocked off, I just touch the iron to the bloody spot to cauterize it. I "figure 8" with a rhinehart X30. I lay down the first ring centerned on the horn bud, touching down for 2-3 seconds, lifting, rotating about 90 degrees, setting down for 2-3 seconds, for a full rotation, total burn time, about 10 seconds, lift, blow on the head, and lay the iron back on, pressing forward against the rear of the bud, repeating the above, making a figure 8 copper ring pattern. I do 99% of the goats in my county. I have a very low instance of scurs, even in bucks. If they need to be reburned, you know within 5 days, and it's still less than two weeks old. The reburns are quick, just enough to knock the bud off then cauterize. I don't put anything on the disbudded area. Anything you put on there will just prolong the healing process. The only time I deviate from the above procedure is for pygmies, they don't bud up as quick and require about 3 weeks before disbudding. I won't even touch a full sized goat with 2 weeks of growth, I don't want to be responsible for the scurs that are sure to form.

Laura Workman · #9 01/27/07, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by christij

I will try for pics in the AM.

Pics of your disbudding iron would help as well. I'm hoping you're not trying to use the calf tip.

Jillis · #10 01/27/07, 06:50 AM

The goat dairy farmer who does my disbuddings does an excellent job. I have NEVER seen a scur on any of his animals---he has over 200! That's a lot of babies at kidding time!

OTOH, literally every other place I know that raises babies and does their own disbudding or has a vet do it has problems with scurs.

He waits until he can feel the buds well under the skin, and then he disbuds. He makes sure the tip is good and hot, puts them in a disbudding box, and then makes sure he keeps the iron on for about 7 to 10 seconds. He rocks the tip around in a circular motion, and makes sure he can see a copper colored ring around the circle before he stops.

He even re-disbudded my Nigie doeling at over 2 months old. When I bought her, the people I bought her from said the vet had disbudded her. The circles were off kilter! Seriously off-kilter. One was about halfway forward of the other one! Of course, she got a scur! So when I brought my dairy babies I brought her and he redid it and she has the smoothest, prettiest head you could want!

She was so chubby he could barely get her in that box---good thing it was made for larger dairy babies!

BTW, I didn't bring my Nigie doeling triplets to him until they were three weeks old---that's how long it took to feel the horn buds under the skin.

And they are just fine!

christij · #11 01/27/07, 07:07 AM

I purchased the dehorner from another goat person so I am hoping it wasn't the calf tip but might very well of been it's probably double the size of the kid tip.

moonspinner · #12 01/27/07, 07:54 AM

Sounds like that might be why you had bleeding. The tip may have been too large and spilled outside the base to the skin. Now with nigerians it helps to have a large tip because their base is generally wider than most other breeds. Which makes them particularly more prone to scurring if you don't do a figure eight on them, especially the bucks.

DocM · #13 01/27/07, 10:41 AM

The big tip and all the messing with other tips is exactly why I didn't get an X50. The biggest and most expensive isn't always the best choice... the X30 is perfect for all types of goats. Sometimes on little pygmy babies, I use the cheapo smaller tipped dehorner I bought from enasco, don't know the model number.

christij · #14 01/28/07, 05:54 AM

SO I took pictures and last night when DD after etting DD to sleep I came down to add them and the camera died!! So here I am this am and the batteries that I pulled off the charger that should be charger are not working!!!!
Good news is that after spending a good chunk of time with the tool yesterday DH was able to finally remove the other tip and fix the plate back into place so it is all ready for Jewel. Now I just need to decide what to do with King. (Darn camera!)
Moonspinner I agree that there was skin contact, but the first horn bud was the one that actually did the most bleeding then King knocked if off the "burned" top and still was bloody. I'm wondering if we should do the burn top side of iron burn - once I saw blood we didn't do that step - my tummy got to weak. (And I am not a squemish person spent sometime as a vet asst)

christij · #15 01/28/07, 12:32 PM

We did Jewel just now and it went so much better. Of course our basement smells like burnt goat now! Thanks everyone for your advice and not being mean to me. When I get my camera up and going I will get King's pics and see what the verdict is...

ozark_jewels · #16 01/28/07, 12:40 PM

So glad it went well with Jewel, Christie. I feel for you, doing it yourself the first time....I know how scary that must be. I had someone to show me the first time and I still thought it was scary.

If it was me....I would go ahead and reburn King now, doing the top of the bud with the side of the iron. I burn, flip the buds off, burn the bud down till its pretty much flat with the head(with the side of the iron), then use the ring again to finish the burn. Bucklings are always harder than the girls. I use Furall immediately to cool their heads. I think your doing well!!