Copper in water?

[Jillis]

My friend raises Nigies, and she was having some fertility issues with one of her bucks who previously had not had any fertility problems.

We were discussing nutritional strategies, found out she NEVER gave Bose or Selenium E gel, didn't use a goat specific mineral, and didn't give any feed that was naturally a source of selenium, zinc, and etc.


But as far as copper is concerned, she feels her goats get enough from her water, she says her water is so copper laden it stains her toilet and sinks blue-green.

Is this an okay way for goats to get their copper?

When I found out she never gave bose to her goats, I immediately went out and gave some selenium e gel to the 2 goats I had bought from her. The very next day, the 11 month old doe went into her very first heat! She had not been cycling at all, despite being next to the buck's pen for months.

Is it possible there is a connection, or was this just a coincidence?

[Sher]

I'm curious Jillis..does she have any kind of loose mineral out for them? That would alleviate some problems. I don't know how deficient in certain minerals your neck of the woods is..kinda varies.

I personallly don't think I would trust my goats copper intake to copper that is leaching out of the pipes. But that's just me..lol.

[Jim S.]

I don't give that stuff, and I use a red cattle mineral block for salt and minerals. No fertility problems. But then again, your experience with the does suggests there may be a link.

How old is the buck? What does she feed them? How do the animals look? Thrifty, or are their coats dull and they look dejected? Are the gums and inner eyelids red or pink? Do they poop loose pellets? How's the body temp? It is amazing what stuff like subclinical cocci can do to reduce fertility. A friend's buck once went a season without impregnating any does. We wormed and used a coccidostat and got him cleaned up 100%, and he was fine the next time around. I believe you can usually tell about a buck by looking at him. He ought to be sassy and full of himself, king of the hill. If he's not, he's dragged down by something.

Certain feedstuffs may affect sperm motility, as well. And it is possible that molds and fungi in feed may affect reproduction.

There are also physical reasons due to disease to consider.

Then again, fertility is a two-way street. She may be blaming the buck when the does are the ones who are not in good enough condition to take. I have helped others with herds that were low-level cocci infected or worm loaded in which the does either stayed open or had miscarriages and slightly premature births (resulting in bottle babies). Low-grade bacterial infections can also raise temps and lower success.

There's no problem with getting copper that naturally occurs in water...if that's the case. But as Sher points out, if it's leaching from the pipes, that's probably not enough. You'd have to test to be sure.

So you'll have to be a detective on this one! If the buck's a nice one, I'd be tempted to see if she'd sell it at a bargain, and fix it up once I got it home.

[fishhead]

It's highly unlikely that there would be enough copper in the water for the goats given their high demand.

[Jim S.]

Originally Posted by fishhead

It's highly unlikely that there would be enough copper in the water for the goats given their high demand.

Ya got me looking at EPA reports!

"EPA estimates that only 66 water systems have copper levels in source water greater than the MCLG." That's 1.3 mg/L.

So the copper would come from the pipes. But is that enough?

Hoegger Goat Supply says: "The amount of copper in goat minerals should be about 1/4 of a pound of copper sulfate per 100 pounds of mineral mix."

So extrapolating that, no, it is not enough copper from just the water. Goats are hugely tolerant of copper, and the amount beneficial to them in drinking water would make a human being have "stomach and intestinal distress, liver and kidney damage, and anemia," according to the EPA.

[DocM]

I'm going to copper bolus now so I don't have to worry about it. Goats have a higher requirement than cows so cattle minerals are still copper deficient. I'm running my sheep and goats together for the time being and the sheep can't have all that copper, so goat minerals are out. Copper is significant in management.

I'm curious how you got your goats to take the selenium gel. I just bought two tubes of it, thinking it might be easier than injections (label says "butterscotch flavor). I seriously can't get it into the goats. They are going into contrary convulsions at the taste. It's too much work if it takes three people to hold a doe and one more to pry her mouth open.. they don't have as big a fit about swallowing ivomec.

[Jillis]

DocM, I put the dosage on a piece of bread. I only have one or two that won't take it rolled up in bread---my prima donnas. So for them, I take the bread and push little pieces down into their mouth. They get most of it.

Originally Posted by Sher

I'm curious Jillis..does she have any kind of loose mineral out for them? That would alleviate some problems. I don't know how deficient in certain minerals your neck of the woods is..kinda varies.

I personallly don't think I would trust my goats copper intake to copper that is leaching out of the pipes. But that's just me..lol.

Both copper and selenium are deficient in our soils, water and subsequently our hay and local grains.

My goats have really been healthy this winter, since I have them up to the minute in minerals. I really, really think this is far more important than we realize.

I have been applying this to my own health needs and those of my family as well.

[Jillis]

BTW, Jim S., thanks for the research! I wouldn't even have known how to start looking for that info. That's what I love about this forum, it is a team project!

[Jim S.]

Shoot, Jillis, thank fishead! It was him got me to snoopin'.

[Jillis]

I wonder why everyone assumes DocM is a man, when she is a woman?

Is it because most people assume a "Doc" is a man, even now?

[Patty0315]

Correct me if I am wrong. Won't you get longer lasting effects from giving a shot of Bose vs the gel. Should it not stay in the muscle tissue and release slowly vs in the gut ? .
Copper bolus have "rods" in them of different lengths. The rods stay in the stomach and break down at different points there fore lasting a long time with slow release. Much of the US are deficent in sel & copper which means we must supplement with other sorces made for goats. Cow or horse minerals will help but not always will the have levels ment for goats. I run into the copper problem in the summer becuase my goats and sheep run together.

Patty

[DocM]

Thanks for the "bread tip" - even my prima donnas will take a piece of bread.

Yeah, the doc thing does throw people off, usually the very conservative among us who can't imagine a woman would do anything besides birthin' babies and servin' their man.