need advice about aborting does

[Key]

FACTS: Before this year, I never lost a kid. I pride myself in a very healthy, happy herd. Grain not moldy.
2 weeks ago, experienced doe aborts twins, 3-4weeks early ?, brown color, no afterbirth that I saw
Yesterday another doe aborts a single brownish kid, looks a few weeks early
Sunday one doe had triplets but one small and normal looking-just too small. The other two kids are perfect and normal-sized.
One doe had twins and one nomral kid died in sac on Wednesday. I was at work...so sad!

So, I've lost five. FIVE! I plan to save the next one, if there is a next brown one, for the state lab. Yesterday I found a single brownish one but no placenta and the kid was completed trampled and dirt-covered.

The vet encourages a state lab visit.
I'm scared as my children, husband, and I have been exposed to birth fluids, etc. Their feed is always covered, but there are a few cats occasionally around the barn area.
Pigeons poop is on the hay. No lots, but some.
All goats acting normal, eating normal, frolicking like everything is normal.
Only new animals are 2 goats from trusted breeder, and two calves (one from auction). Horses share part of pasture.
Occasional mouse and rat in barn area, but I only see one about every six months.
Internet search brings up these possiblitiies:
chlyamdia, Q fever and toxoplasmosis
We bought some form of tetracycline today for IM shots for the rest fo the pregnant does and crumble form also.
If you have expereince with any of these 3, could you please drop me a line about your experience as I am very worried for my family and the future of my herd

[goatmarm]

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[xoxoGOATSxoxo]

Do goats get Bangs Disease, aka Brucellosis? I think there is a vaccination though. That causes abortion in cattle...I think...

Just an idea. I'm real sorry about your poor goats. Hope it's nothing serious...

[Key]

The does are doing quite well...you would never know that they aborted except dried blood on them. Never lost their appetities.
I had read up on Brucellosis and decided that wasn't probably it, but now I forget why I skipped over that one. I am so disappointed about it all.
Now I don't know what to hope for.....another aborted kid to send for testing or that all remaning kids come without problems (which would make diagnosis difficult).
I used to brag that I never lost a single kid as I do try to be there at brith and ensure they get colostrum,etc. I can't brag anymore.
We literally have a barn full of hay so a tarp may be difficult, we are looking to manage the pigeon population this weekend.....

[mygoat]

You can draw blood and do tests for your suspected diseases. I'd say that would be a good idea at this point. You don't really have to wait till another one aborts.

[fishhead]

I think there is a strain of Chlamydia (sp) that causes abortions.

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/ch...lamydia2.shtml

[goatlover270]

So very, very sorry to hear about your lost ones. I from unfortunate experience, know what it is like to loose babies(sigh) I hate it and it is a empty feeling I know.
I wanted to let you know that the lady that I know who had our place before us, she had pigeons and birds and cats in her barn and they pooped everywhere even in the hay and she still fed it to her animals, even the horses and none ever got sick. We got some hay she still had here and asked around if it was ok to give our goats, and other animals and everyone that we asked said yes, there were no troubles from it, fortunately. She had like, 7 cats that lived literally in the barn and you could really tell too LOL I love cats and they are great to have around a barn for sure. Also, about the mice... If you have seen one, you know there are more, they multiply like you wouldn't believe. We do not put out poison due to the cats and dogs,etc.., don't want any animal to get into that stuff, ya know.
I had a mysterious death of a goat that got pregnant after I got her from my friend, and have had babies be born still born, it's sibblings were born alive, but never had anything this odd. I will pray for you in hopes that you find what the problem is so it doesn't happen again and your family too will be safe. Just pray about it, God will give you an answer. I have definitely learned that. I am praying heavily today about my situation.... Keep us informed, definitely so we can learn in case we come across this, thanks for sharing.

[Carrie C]

You mentioned cats...
Goats can abort due to toxoplasmosis which cats carry. We had our cat tested for this before he came home.
Sorry you are experiencing this! My goat lost a kid due to toxo or, perhaps, chlmydia. I lost her as a breeder, also (which is why I insisted that the cat get tested before we gave him a home).
Best wishes!
~Carrie C.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Toxo is mostly caused by cats having kittens in the hay or barn dirt, toxo is mostly passed by kittens poop, not by adult cats, a spayed male is of no consequence to your does. The dead starting to slurry kids are the problem although the other two does kidding, one kid in a sack is usually more about copper than a true abortion unless very early, and the other kid dieing trampled on is just a bad mother or accident.

I would also have the vet out to draw blood, then at the next delivery keep the kids and most importantly any placentas for testing.

Do not give your tetracylcine IM, do it subq, lots of info out that all OTC antibiotics should be given subq and not IM in goats. The feed through will help, but starting all does on shots first can save some of your pregnancys if the does are not yet to day 100.

A trusted older breeder is not a good or bad thing. Our does in older herds have super immunity, they also would bloodtests positive for things like chlamydia and mycoplasma from immunity from our older does who had these things back when. If bred by your buck with lowered immunity they could have passed this on to the other does. The buck is the common dinominator in most abortion storms, all bucks bred to the same buck that are now aborting? You can have a few normal kiddings, then an abortion storm, because the does who kid normally are already immune (they have immunity from mom or have had this before) or they weren't bred by the same buck.

Also did you have pinkeye in the herd this last summer? This can be the cause of an abortion storm later in the winter, the chlamydia is harbored in the does and results in abortions.

The feed through tetracycline is a very good idea for your herd, nobody wants to have to medicate like this long term, but until you have a new healthy kid crop on the ground I would keep the does and bucks on medicated feed until after they kid. Breed back if you can, and don't forget to treat your buck.

Sorry this happened, but do some dectective work and find out what happened, because a heads up from someone with my does, or who maybe used my buck, is a headsup that could save my kidding season if caught early enough.

Be glad to help if you need it, make sure you have someone who understands read you the test results and tell you what they mean in goats. But yes test for Q fever also. Texas A&M has an abortion screening panel you can have ran, and you obviously only need to do one or two of the does who had the slurry brown kids.

A state vet can quranteen your facility so take that into consideration...and Q fever is quaranteenable, it also means the animals need to be slaughtered in some states.. Vicki

[Key]

No pinkeye last summer...in fact, I haven't had that on the farm for a few years (before the goats...in my horses). I am very itnerested in the Texas screen test. I will search it online..if you have a direct link, please email it to me. Thanks, Vicki.

[Jcran]

You might consider having your hay tested too, unless you know the grower. As I've stated on other posts, my neighbor bought some gorgeous hay from our feed store 3 years ago that contained an invasive weed called flixweed (false tansy). It is becoming a problem in alfalfa fields, especially first cuttings. It is in the mustard family and caused some really SERIOUS birth problems...many kids premie, lots with goiters, hairless, etc due to the iodine-inhibiting factors in it. However, it is mainly a western u.s. problem I think. Anyhow, good luck and please accept my condolences.

[Carrie C]

Not only check the hay for weeds, but for anything "off". Good point, Jcran.
Vicki, cats of all ages and stages roam through hay fields.
Best wishes, Key!

[Key]

Thanks for the info and ideas...we acutally make all of our own hay for the goats, cattle, and horses. Manily bromegrass, but there is always a possiblity that something grew in the fields this year that hadn't in previous years.
I am scared, but I am hopeful that we can get this under control as the goats are alot of fun for us to raise. I just told my husband lately how I don't like the January/Februaury part fo the year as I get the after-Christmas gets-dark-early-each-night blues, but kidding season makes me look forward to this part of winter. So, these kidding probelms are not helping my winter blues! At least the temps have been unseasonsably mild in PA (looking for temps in 60s tomorrow with rain!)
Thanks again for all your help-

[computerchick]

Definitely test.

However, the highest rate of transfer of the toxoplasmosis oocyte is fecal to oral. You can have your cat tested to determine if it is a carrier. Male and female cats can and are affected.

Documentation:

http://path.upmc.edu/cases/case160/dx.html

here's a more layman's version - http://www.bookrags.com/Toxoplasmosis

Also, you can have the strain of chlamydia that produces abortions without the pinkeye. They are different strains, and I believe a document on 'goat world' quoted that it is highly unlikely that both exist in the same herd at the same time. I will work on digging that article up for you. Good news is there is a vax for chlamydia.

Some good articles for you to look at:

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/ch...lamydia2.shtml

http://www.goatworld.com/articles/ab...bortion2.shtml

right now, segregate the healthy animals from the aborting ones to prevent further abortion storm symptoms. Clean up thoroughly when handling any afterbirth, etc until you know. Sometimes just the phermones of one aborting animal can cause another to abort. The brown fetus however sounds abnormal, mummified and indicative of toxoplasmosis based on Dr Kimberling's article and other things I've read and talked with vets about!

Overall, good luck. Test that cat!

Andrea

[Key]

Thanks, Andrea, for all the great links. I will check them out as I am obsessed with this until we can figure out what is "Wrong". Bad news about testing the cat....all the cats there are "wild". We rent the farm, so I have never become chummy with them, but I will see one once in a while. I will see different ones occasionally, but not often. When I do see one, it takes off running.

[computerchick]

I completely understand, I just went through this with a first time doe, and the test results just came back with, well, ready for this...Nada.

Well, at least we know we're clean of vibrio, chlamydia, toxo, and the three others the vet tested for. The liver biopsy showed nothing as well. Chalked up to in her 'professional words' "These things happen". Sigh. She did verify that other does can start aborting that are perfectly fine around ones that are aborting - the phermones are very strong, similar to those does that are together tend to start cycling together, that type of thing.

Do be obsessed. If it is something you would want to know about it. Good news with toxoplasmosis is once the doe has it and aborted she builds up immunities. It really isn't that horrific on the human side minus a preggo human...I believe it presents as a nasty gi flu...those docs have the info.

Let us know what you find out!

Andrea