Quadruplets - First time kidding and have some ?s

[kanpope]

One of our seasoned NDG does had doeling quadruplets last night or early this morning. They all seem healthy - umbilical cord dried up nicely on their own, they are dry and clean, the dam is up, eating, drinking, and peeing, and the doelings are nursing.

Although, there is one "runt" that is smaller than the rest and a little lethargic (we gave each of the 2 cc of Nutri-Drench and the dam too). I sat out there with all of them for well over a hour twice today and never saw that little one nurse. I brought her over to the teat a few times but she never showed much interest other than to sniff around and walk away.

All the other doelings cuddle in the corner (it is about 50 degrees here but we are having a huge t-storm and the goats are all in their three sided house and blocked from the wind and rain) together but that one little girl does not sit by them. She lays alone, a couple feet away.

So, I am concerned about a couple of things and would like your insight...

1. the dam having enough milk for 4 doelings

2. not having seen the doeling get any colostrum

3. slight lethargy in the the one doeling

Would this be a situation where the it would be best to bring the doeling in the house and bottle feed it? What about the colostrum?

TIA for your help!

[cmharris6002]

I think you should try to get some colostrum into that little doe before any more time goes by! Can you milk you doe? I also suggest bottlefeeding the little one. You can keep weight records so you know each doe is getting enough.

Christy

[Idahoe]

Optimally a kid recieves 1/2 ounce of colostrum per pound of body weight of good quality colostrum in 12 hours. So an 8 pound kid has to recieve 16 ounces. Good quality colostrum is from older does who have been vaccinated, or who have been around enough to catch some things..your most valuable does are does who got over pnemonia...pinkeye...etc...with little to help from you, or the whole herd was sick and her immunity was soo strong she didn't even get a sniffel. First and second fresheners colostrum is not good quailty colostrum.

I copy/pasted this, a post from Vickie McG. about colostrum amounts. And yes, I'd express some colostrum from the doe and take the baby away, that's a lot of babies for an FF to handle. Three is a lot, so I'd watch those kids closely for a while .

By the way, WOW!!! What a windfall for you! Congrats!

[kanpope]

Originally Posted by cmharris6002

I think you should try to get some colostrum into that little doe before any more time goes by! Can you milk you doe? I also suggest bottlefeeding the little one. You can keep weight records so you know each doe is getting enough.

Christy

Thanks for your reply Christy. I cannot milk the doe at this time. She is still a little skiddish from the delivery, plus I got her dry and have never milked her myself. She is not too fond of me rubbing her udders, esp right now (I tried and so did dh). If I cannot get colostrum in her from the bottle, do you think that I should just take her inside and give her a colostrum substitute? I just hate to do that because of all the antibodies should could be getting from the dam. What do you think?
Weight records are a great idea....I big DUH to me for that one!

[kanpope]

Originally Posted by Idahoe

I copy/pasted this, a post from Vickie McG. about colostrum amounts. And yes, I'd express some colostrum from the doe and take the baby away, that's a lot of babies for an FF to handle. Three is a lot, so I'd watch those kids closely for a while .

By the way, WOW!!! What a windfall for you! Congrats!

Interesting...thank you for sharing that! I can really use that information! As I just posted to Christy, I cannot milk the doe right now...any ideas?

[kanpope]

Originally Posted by Idahoe

that's a lot of babies for an FF to handle.

BTW, what is a FF? She is not a first freshener (if that is what it means). I know of at least one other kidding (I have one of her does) and I think that she freshened at least one time before that.

[delphinium]

I think kanpope meant it was the human owner's first time experiencing a kidding. The first post stated the doe was seasoned which I took to mean she had kidded previously.

Congratulations!! I am soooooooooooooooooooooo jealous. My first one had twin bucklings. Can't wait to see what the next batch brings.

[trob1]

You know sometimes these does do not like the things we need to do but we need to do them. Get your husband to help. Hook this doe up by the colar to a fence or hook, have your husband hold both her back ankles and you milk out some for this doeling or she is going to die. I personally would either just pull this baby and or pull her and another to bottle feed together. You might want to just pull the runt first and see if she makes it in a few days and then pull another one for company. It isnt any harder to feed two and they will enjoy the company. I have had to tie a doe up for 4 days so her baby could eat before she finally decided she was ready to be a mom. Good luck!

[Idahoe]

Originally Posted by kanpope

BTW, what is a FF? She is not a first freshener (if that is what it means). I know of at least one other kidding (I have one of her does) and I think that she freshened at least one time before that.

missed the 'seasoned' part

[Dee]

I would pull the baby and give the substitute colostrum, bottle whole cow's milk (I will also put in some probiotics and a drop of corn syrup into the cow's milk) if you do not have any other goat milk and do it today, now, especially if it is cold and rainy out tonight. She will not make it through the night if you do not.

I had triplets where the youngest died because it couldn't get enough milk. Found it weak and cold in the morning and couldn't save it. (Hard way to learn a lesson) When I tried to get another one to nurse(had three sets of triplets that year), there was just nothing there. Pulled that baby, never got colostrum and is still going strong with babies of her own. Unless you keep the three kids off Mom, you will not be able to get any milk out of her for the bottle.

I agree with pulling a second baby and bottling the two together.

Oh, by the way, if you have trouble getting her to suckle the bottle, try putting honey on your finger to get a sucking reflex then move her to the bottle. If she is too weak, you may have to tube feed her first to get her stronger.

Congratulations on 4 doeling babies!

[harplade]

I have milked several does who have never been milked. Hold the bucket with one hand and milk with the other (as long as she's tied up) and be prepared to do the goat dance as she jumps around. She'll calm down but the baby needs what she has.
Harplade

[manygoatsnmore]

If you have to, pull all of the kids for a few hours to get that udder filling, then force milk her. The window of opportunity is closing fast to get colostrum in the kid. Having her lying apart from the other kids and being lethargic is a sure sign that if you do nothing, this doeling WILL die. She needs colostrum and then milk, and a warm spot to sleep. Even then, you may not save her, but at least it will give her a chance.

Quad doelings, wow! So lucky!

[moonspinner]

This kid is more important than a skittish mom. Hobble her or do whatever, but get some colostrum out of her. You don't need that much for a newborn nigie. She needs nourishment asap. That she's alone in a corner is not a good sign and mom may be rejecting her. With multiples it often happens you lose one or one just isn't strong enough. But this little one needs heat first (did you take her temp?) and then milk. Best of luck to you.

[trob1]

How are they all doing this morning?

[Key]

I completely agree...it won't be easy to milk her, but getting that Momma's milk and colcostrum will be the best thing for this little kid at this point. I've dealt with a similiar circumstance, and thankfully the kid lived even though the doe was less than thrilled with me when I milked her a few times.

[LMonty]

Optimally a kid recieves 1/2 ounce of colostrum per pound of body weight of good quality colostrum in 12 hours. So an 8 pound kid has to recieve 16 ounces.

1/2 x 8 = 4

so where does the 16 come from? or is that supposed to read "one or two" ounces?

I are confused....

[Kazahleenah]

Originally Posted by LMonty

1/2 x 8 = 4

so where does the 16 come from? or is that supposed to read "one or two" ounces?

I are confused....

I come up with 8 oz.
1/2 X 8= 4 for 12 hours... X 2= 8 for 24 hours....

Kaza

[manygoatsnmore]

So, any word on the weak kid?

[kanpope]

Okay, so it has been two days and dh and I have been checking on the kids and dam about every two hours (except just once between midnight and 5am). We have seen all the doelings nurse, urinate, and deficate. They all seem to be strong - up walking around, playing, and curious about their surroundings and the other does in the pen.

There is a clear heirarchy among the kids - the two largest (and darkest) ones nurse first, then the one that I thought was the runt and was concerned about eats, and then the one that really is the runt goes last. The dam seems to be doing very well with all four, but dh and I are keeping an eye on that littlest one.

I went and got milk replacer and a nipple (for a coke bottle) today, plus some probiotics for the milk replacer. We will decide in the next day or two if it is necessary to pull one (or two) of the kids. For right now, everyone seems good.

I think that my original concerns were a result of inexperience and overprotectiveness (I too am pg and due in about 8 weeks). Although, like I said, we will keep checking on them every couple hours and keep y'all posted.

As a side note, it is amazing to witness the dynamic of the herd when I just sit in there quietly and observe. They are so cool! I have always been a lover of our herd, but the intimacy of this situation has given me the opportunity to really witness how they interact and deal with each other. That is a post for another time, but I just wanted to share how blessed I feel!

Well, we have another doe that I think may be in labor or is pretty close. She will probably kid within the next three days. Oh boy! Lots of babies! Dh and I so thrilled with our little buck! He has given us a ton of girls and throws some beautiful color!

Here are some pictures of the little girls...









Thank you all for all your help and insight! I REALLY appreciate it! I will keep you posted!

[mamagoose]

kanpope, congrats! They are too cute!