Dairy Buck Feeding

[dezeeuwgoats]

Hello - I lost my beautiful Nubian buck last August to urinary calculi. He was fed alfalfa. He was beautiful and a sweet guy, not to mention the financial and genetics - a huge loss to me. I have one year's worth of kids, plus he bred three does before he died. My question is for anyone with years worth of experience feeding dairy bucks. What can be fed to avoid calculi? Beet pulp? Grass hay? Will I be able to keep good flesh on a dairy buck with something other than alfalfa?

Thanks;
Niki

[DocM]

I feed my boys grass hay year round, plus they have a nice brushy paddock of their own, with lots of blackberries and other tangled messes. Between July and December, when they're breeding, they get 2 lbs of oat/barley mix, no corn. They get loose minerals. They're very healthy, and none of my three bucks, or any of my pack wethers, have ever had urinary tract problems. I don't feed them any alfalfa, but the grass hay we have here in the NW is very nice hay.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

Unless your minerals are soo out of whack in your water...areas around Texas are high in Sulfur and they have hard times keeping adult bucks healthy. But normally, calcium, which is the mainstay of alfalfa is not the problem in urinary calculi. It's is phosphrous which is plentiful in grass hay, and grain.

How much grain did you feed him and what was the protein. After being grown (bones, hooves and horns need protein to grow) bucks need very little protein to sustain themselves, breeding and staying in good flesh is more about calories, energy, exercise and overall health.. Alfalfa is the perfect food for dairy stock, and most stock.

The other culprit is water. Not saying you, but filthy water buckets that are never cleaned out, bucks who get no mineral supplementation to make them 'want' salt which makes them want more water. And missdiagnosis of course.

My bucks get alfalfa everyday of life. They get grain while growing, then grain to get back into shape after rut (which here means they are lean from breeding and being collected, right at the same time there is little to eat in the woods) so they get grain. Bucks who are not going to be shown or appraised get very little to no grain, so they are lean and easier for me to handle.

If you feed grain feed Ammonium Chloride. Vicki

[KSALguy]

i agree 100% with Vicki, Alfalfa was not your problem, you need to tell us more about what ELSE this buck got to eat and what type of mineral and any other info you can tell us, and are you sure it was UC?

[dezeeuwgoats]

I am not sure it was UC - I was out of town when he died. He was being taken care of by my DH, and my good good friend, who has 30+ years experience with goats. It was the only thing she could come up with, for whatever that is worth. No lung noises, etc. I kept asking DH over the phone if he had seen Dancer pee, but with his work schedule never saw him go, even though he did keep an eye on him while he was home. It was pretty awful doing all this over the phone.

We have very hard water here, but haven't had any other bucks have problems. Still, I have several other experienced goat people telling me alfalfa is too rich for bucks. I'm new enough (3 yrs) that I'm still repeating information second-hand.

He was fed alfalfa pellets free choice, along with Sweetlix Caprine Magnamilk mineral. He rarely got grain - as a treat, and only a handful at a time. Rarely being not even once a week. The grain was what the milkers got in the stanchion. Not sure about protein, but it is formulated specifically for dairy goats. Either Ace High Goat Feed, or Super Goat. He was also dewormed - in good flesh, rich, shiny coat too. If I'd have been home - I would have had him autopsied. I thought I'd pick your brains, since I've got two sons standing here that I don't want to accidently kill.

Sorry I didn't respond sooner - HT hasn't been letting me post - I go to the trouble of writing it all out, then I get a page that states 'error' and 'gateway timeout' or something of that nature. It's been frustrating.

Niki

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

So in her well meaning help did she give him (or talk husband into giving him) all grain and take away his alfalfa pellets.......... so you didn't kill your buck? I know lots of older breeders who believe what you said about alfalfa, still have deaths of older does, their best milkers, their most prolfiic does, most of their does who triplet or quad, die each and every year because you don't feed good hay, and certainly NOT alfalfa to does who are bred...this infomration is everywhere on the internet, it stops ketosis. The problem is that this information is soo wrong that it is why they loose does or kids or both, yet they won't listen about hypocalcemia, feed alfalfa, because this information is not written in some vet text somewhere. All the old cattle ketosis info is. Sothey choose to believe it.

With you not being home and him dieing soo suddenly, it just simply points to a huge change in something that either brought on UC or more than likely enterotoxemia with that change of feed.

The problem with older breeders, and me also, is that we feel that if something is not broken why fix it...problem comes in when you don't make changes when it is broken. Accepting any loss from metobolic pregnancy disease or the death of goatlings after birth, simply doesn't have to happen anymore. You have to change with the times and new info or continue with the higher mortality rates than we have.

Huge change for me...you could read old posts even I have made about the protein issue and urinary calculi....soy protein...problem is it wasn't the protein as much as it was the phosphrous in soy!!!

That's the biggy on this forum. We can say things over and over, but some think it's normal to loose 10% of their kid crop each year and 5% of their adult doe herd..these are very basic numbers most folks think are normal in sheep and goats...it is not normal for me. Not in the least. And that is what I would like to give if nothing else.

It's soo hard to leave the farm, because it's when things happen. I am soo lucky in having adult daughters who know how anal I am about my stock, they also know their value. They also know I would kick their behinds if they changed anything

I wouldn't worry about the sons. If this was a herd wide problem that needed to be addressed you would not get young bucks much past weaning, certainly not from the spring to fall, without symptoms already.

At anytime my bucks get anything in their feeder other than alfalfa is when I use ammonium chloride, either raw from pipevet.com 1 teaspoon per boy per day, or in the meat goat pellet I buy (Pilgrims). Vicki

[dezeeuwgoats]

Vicki - He was living with the does at the time - and they got alfalfa pellets free choice. I'll have to ask if they separated him - I don't think so, but can't say for sure. I'm going to have to read more about some of the other things you mentioned (entero) to see if anything rings a bell.

I have the propylene glycol on hand just in case for my does, but I've never had to use it. I hate to even mention it, but I haven't lost any adult does - and I dread the day that happens. I'm so attached to them - I can't imagine the emotional state I'd be in if something went wrong with one of them. We have horse vets that treat goats, but not very well - and the best goat vet is three hours from here in Benson.

I have lost babies though. I don't know that I'm experienced enough to know why. Certainly not lack of dedication. It's a brutal learning curve, though. I hate to think of things suffering due to my ignorance, and I'm an avid researcher, but it still happens.

I'll post a picture of him here - I'm still in mourning. It's hard to talk about him, let alone write. I'm teary-eyed now, and it's been four months. Never thought I'd get so attached to a stinky buck! Even DH said he had a home for life - gentlest intact male animal I've ever dealt with. A real gentleman. Hope he passes on his temperament.

niki

[dezeeuwgoats]

Goldthwaite Native Dancer - at a year old. He really wasn't hocky, but it's the best photo I have of him.....

[Jillis]

Originally Posted by vicki

Not saying you, but filthy water buckets that are never cleaned out

Why is this Vicki? Because the bucks will drink less if the bucket is dirty?

I give my bucks some apple cider vinegar in their water, and I give them very warm water twice a day now that the weather has become very cold. We give all the animals very warm water to encourage them to drink, and to keepo the buckets from freezing too fast.

The bucks "grain" treat is more than half alfalfa pellets, some prime oats, some Boss and a very little sweet feed (Poulin Grain 18%). I also give them kelp powder and Sweetlix Meatmaker minerals.

They get about a large handful of this mix apiece every morning and night. Is this a good mix for bucks?

Should I still be giving them AC?

Thanks!