About milking...

[mygoat]

So this spring I'll have two alpine does freshening and I'll be milking my first milk goats. (going to get my second alpine later today!! Wooo!!) I'm exited but I'm confused about one thing... When do you first milk out the doe, for the first time? Before she kids? Because whenever my other does kid they usually are weak and lay around the rest of the day, and are shaky on thier feet after kidding, so I can't really imagine asking a doe, just after kidding, to jump onto the milkstand, and stand there while I, a first time milker, takes my dear sweet time hand milking her out, lol. (that's a run on sentance if I ever saw one, lol) Exactly how is it done?

I've already got a 8 qt SS Stock pot for a milking bucket, (that may be too big, I"ll have to go look, in that case I'll get a 6 qt and use the 8qt for transport or somethin) and a mini stainless strainer and filter thingies from Hoegger, which should do well for just two does, I would think. I plan on getting dairy soap, spray on sanitizer, and the acid wash from Hoegger as well. I need to go out and get one of those large iced tea jars with the spout that we can use for the goat milk right in the fridge. I also plan on freezing some for raising my miniature kids on, as well as raising the alpine kids on... But how to go about pasteurizing? I don't have a fancy pasteurizer (sp?). I"ve heard of using a double broiler... but how do I go about doing this? I want to drink our milk raw, but the kid's milk, I want to raise them on CAE prevention... Any advice?

Oh, and any other advice that you could share with me would be great. I know HOW to milk, but just about everything else will be new to me.

Thanks in advance, everybody.

[dezeeuwgoats]

I personally wouldn't use an iced tea jar with a spout - due to cleaning difficulties. I used them in the beginning, but the spouts just don't hold up to the cleaning necessary for use with milk. I just use the gallon, and half-gallon sized glass jars. They are a pain to pour from though, and my stepmom found half gallon glass milk jars in Arkansas that pour really nice - they come with milk in them, but I reuse them for my own milk!

Depending on how you are feeding the kids (dam-raising, bottle-feeding) can also determine when you milk. I'm fairly new to goats, so I am still experimenting. Last year I allowed the babies to nurse, as I tested for CAE, and my goats came from tested herds. I followed the Fiasco Farms website where they allow the kids to nurse for two weeks, and then start milking once a day with some of my does. Others, who had fewer kids and/or more milk, I milked right away. Once the kids were weaned, I milked twice a day. I am thinking about bottle feeding this year, with the does that weren't too bright feeding their kiddos. Since all the girls I bought came from herds that practiced CAE prevention - none of them had ever nursed their own. I had some who did fine, and others who SEEMED fine, only for me to find them full to bursting, refusing to nurse their babies, this was after 3 weeks of feeding them! Others refused from the very beginning. I guess it depends on the goat! My first fresheners caught on right away.

I wouldn't milk before kidding. Lots of people do afterwards. I always let the kiddos nurse the first 12-24 hours, then milk the doe out and freeze the colostrum. I date it, and label it with the doe's name too - the older the doe, I think the better the quality of the colostrum. That's what I've read anyway.

Niki

[DocM]

Milk out after they kid. I don't wait very long because the kid needs to eat pretty quick. You can probably milk out enough for a first feeding while the doe is just standing in her stall, then milk her out completely later. Even first time milkers won't put up a fight when you milk them out. They're either worn out, shell shocked, or so uncomfortably full of milk they're glad you're doing it.

I milk twice a day, so a 6 qt bucket is plenty big enough. For first time milkers that tend to jump around, I actually use a stainless cook pot with a handle that I can hold and grab out of the way of wayward feet.

This is my milking routine: First, I don't use all that dairy wash crap, I wash my hands with regular soap, and then I wash the udder with a warm wet washcloth, no soap. It's easy for me because I have a sink and hot water in my milkroom. I milk into a pan. Get lids, because you'll find that you have to do several things at once, put the pan someplace, finish the doe, put her away, get another goat. I have a 5 gallon milk can. When done with each doe, I put some kind of udder cream on the doe. I prefer the cream type to the greasy kind, because otherwise, the udder is always covered in stuff that sticks to the grease. When I first started, I used teat dip and all that other wash stuff and ended up with poor does with cracked skin and over washed udders. After milking, I strain through one of those hoeggers strainers into the bucket that goes into my pasteurizer. If you're going to pasteurize on the stovetop, get some half gallon canning jars that you can set into the water bath.

You can pasteurize by bringing the milk up to 165 degrees for 15 seconds. Watch it close and don't let it go over that temp.

I bought a tabletop pasteurizer on ebay for $40. It works great. If you buy one used, be sure to check the temp by running a cycle with water and a candy thermometer. It only holds a gallon though. An easy cheap pasteurizer - one of those oil cookers you can cook an entire turkey in. I bought one with a temp guage and stainless 5 gallon tub for less than $100 on sale. I just watch the guage until it's up to 165 and count for 15 seconds.

You can also pasteurize at 145 degrees if you hold the temp there for 30 minutes. This is a little harder to do, but its how a tabletop pasteurizer does it.

After pasteurizing, I have a double sink filled with ice water. I set the jars or buckets directly into the cold water. The secret of good milk is cooling it quickly.

If you're worried about CAE, have your does tested before they kid. I used to bottle raise kids until I had a dozen does kidding. Milking that many does, processing milk, AND making a ton of bottles got to be too much. Now I let a few of my tested does raise their kids. I separate the kids at night and milk in the morning, after which I put the kids back in with mom for the day. I only bottle feed kids that are requested to be bottle fed by their new owners. I charge more for those kids because they're more work.

I know there will be a ton of arguments on this, but I won't drink raw milk, even from my own does. I wouldn't eat raw eggs either, not even from my own chickens. Before someone directs me to a "website" for raw milk or tells me there is a benefit to raw milk , be advised that I have a PhD in biology and I'm pretty well versed in pathology AND nutrition. I won't debate the issue - I don't care what other people do.

http://intothesunrise.blogspot.com/2...grass-fed.html

[mygoat]

Well my younger alpine doe, Heidi, as well as my minis, are all tested for CAE before, just a couple months ago, and my new doe was raised on CAE Prevention, so it's not that I think they have it, just that I would like to start bottle raising ALL my kids(except for maybe some kids that I would like to raise for meat), and it's just another step away from raising them on CAE prevention anyhow, thought I should start. I am going to get one of the caprine feeders from caprine supply (lambar type thing) and to keep them tame I'm going to be present at every feeding, as well as feed each kid thier first meals with the bottle, by hand. On my alpines, though, all kids will be raised CAE Prevention because 1. I don't want kids nursing them, I want to milk from the get-go, 2x a day. and 2. the daughters are going to be family milkers. The bucklings may be herdsires and I want to keep one or two wethers as cart goats, but the rest will go as pets or meat. I think to pasturize the milk this year, I will will start canning it. I saw the other post about it and it said it pasturizes the milk, though it takes an hour or somesuch. I think it would be worth it for pasturizing kid milk, and pretty easy to do. That's probably what I"ll do this first year, then I'll get a pasturizer through ebay.

Oh, how soon after kidding can the milk be drank? I know it's after colostrum production stops, but whenabout is that?

Thanks for the idea on the spouted jar idea... Shoulda thought that the would be hard to clean!

[chamoisee]

Whether the kids are going to be bottle fed or not, I milk the doe the same day she kids. If you're doing CAE prevention, there isn't really any reason why you couldn't milk her before she kids, that way you could have the colostrum all ready to go for the newborn kids. I would milk the day before or the same day though, not a week before or anything like that.

Colostrum: actually, you can consume extra colostrum, but if you drink it, it will give you the runs. It can also be made into pancakes and doesn't have a laxatuve effect that way, and the pancakes taste fine. Kind of a waste of colostrum, though.

[DocM]

I usually wait at least a week before drinking it, and I have a couple does that retain a pretty nasty taste to their milk for 10 days. Your milage may vary, but I wouldn't try it for at least 5 days or so.

You may find that you'll have to adjust feeding to what tastes best to you - different feeds greatly affect the taste of the milk. My son had a corn allergy, so I had one doe I didn't feed any corn containing feed to - I discovered I liked the taste of that milk so much better.

It's a myth that dam raised kids aren't as friendly as bottle fed. You can't tell the difference with mine. Ideally, you'd be handling them every day anyway. Good luck with your babies!

[mygoat]

Originally Posted by DocM

I usually wait at least a week before drinking it, and I have a couple does that retain a pretty nasty taste to their milk for 10 days. Your milage may vary, but I wouldn't try it for at least 5 days or so.

It's a myth that dam raised kids aren't as friendly as bottle fed. You can't tell the difference with mine. Ideally, you'd be handling them every day anyway. Good luck with your babies!

Originally Posted by chamoisee

If you're doing CAE prevention, there isn't really any reason why you couldn't milk her before she kids, that way you could have the colostrum all ready to go for the newborn kids. I would milk the day before or the same day though, not a week before or anything like that.

Thanks, Guys, thats what I needed, lol. I can tell when a doe is going to kid by the loss of ligaments, and am pretty good at that, I would say. Starting a week before thier duedates, I start checking thier ligaments. The morning of kidding, I think I'll milk out the doe, and proceed with canning the colostrum produced, and use that to feed the kids when they're born.

Dam raised kids... It depends, I've found. If you spend a ton of time with them, they'll most likely become very friendly. I have one now, that is often mistaked for a bottle baby. However, I recently had a 1 yr old doe that died (In a haynet) but she was skittish her entire life. Dam raised, though her sister, also dam raised, is very friendly.

[DocM]

Apparently, I have just learned today, if you plan to can or freeze colostrum, you want to do it at a lower temp than pasteurization. From a message board I'm on, the consensus is to process it for an hour at a temp not higher than 140 or it will kill the antibodies and render it into useless pudding, lol. I guess if you screw it up you know because it turns into mush. Just remember to process it at a lower temp than pasteurizing regular milk. Be sure to date the milk you can too. I forget to do that with the stuff I freeze, and then I never know if I'm using the oldest or newest.

[Tracy in Idaho]

I've never heard of anyone canning colostrum? I don't know how you could because the high temp would turn it into pudding. You don't want it to get much above 135 F.

I milk them out right after they kid. I don't ask them to get on the milkstand, I milk them right in the pen -- I just squat down to do it. They are usually happy to clean my face and hair during the process.

I then heat treat the colostrum -- I don't need it for those kids born, because I already have a supply in the freezer from last year. Girls get older doe colostrum of less than 12 hours fresh, boys get yearling colostrum or +12 hour colostrum unless they are possible breeding boys. I mark it all on the bottle it's frozen in, so not a big deal.

Anyhow, I heat treat the colostrum, pour it into 20 oz pop bottles, label and freeze for next time.

Tracy

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

There is no canning colostrum You would be making a giant eraser

Heat Treating colostrum is hard when you are only doing a pint or so, but of course can be done if you watch it very carefully. I don't use a pasteurizer, you have to double check their accuracy anyway with a thermometer each time you use it, so why bother? They also don't hold enough milk for me, I like to pasteurize all my milk for the whole day, so use a stock pot.

Your stock pot for milking is too tall, it would be fine though for toting the milk back and forth from the barn to the house. So milk into something smaller, something that holds about 1 gallon, most of your does should milk about 1 to 2 quarts each milking, then dump the milk into the stainless pot, better yet, put a strainer over the top of it, dump the milk into the strainer..into the pot, so you don't have to strain it. Put a frozen soda bottle (plastic, empty, fill with water) into the pot so the milk starts getting cold immediatly.

I prewash shaved udders with wetones I add alcohol to ( I use the cheap Wallmart popupthrough the top kind, and add about 1/4 of a small container of alcohol to it). Milk, than post dip with a quart sprayer (clean water and clorox bleach (1 gallon of water to 1/4 cup bleach)

Milking the doe a day before she kids is fine, after loosing all my stored colostrum a couple of years ago, I did this also.

After she kids, she should not be all weak and wobbly...what is she getting calcium from in her diet at your farm? I also don't let my does push and push, if after several pushes there is no presentation of kids, I immediatly go in and see what is up, with a good presentation kids come out eaisly and don't overtax my does. I milk my does right after kidding, if she is older I won't ask her to jump up, and just go out with a 4 cup measuring cup with a handle, and milk one handed on both sides. I also send in colostrum for CAE testing, so milking right away is essential.

Even when we did the boers, I always milk out the doe the day she kids, not only to save colostrum, but you don't want colostrum clogging up the udder undrank. I then once a day went out and milked any doe who was not even, or had her udder collapsed. It makes for more milk for the kids when they are older.

I heat treat and pasteurize in a double boiler on my stove all the time. I tape two candy thermometers together (wallmart kind) so if one is off from the other I know there is a problem). I use the big stainless nesting kettles (stockpots) using the larger one on the bottom with water, and the smaller one on the top with the milk or colostrum. I like the stock pots because they rest on each others handles, which makes it eaiser when the bottom or sides of your top pot doesn't touch the bottom or sides of the bottom pot.

Go slow when heat treating, don't start timing until you are at 140 degrees. Keep it at or below 140, but not at 135 for the whole hour. Heat treat colostrum when you have time to sit for the whole hour and watch it. If you use a thermos make sure after the hour that it is still above 135...it has never worked for me.

If you overheat the colostrum and it turns into jello or an eraser, you have to throw it out, you have killed it's immunity giving powers and also made it unabsorbable by the intestine.

It's alot to do, but you will get a good schedule and then it becomes second nature. The 12 weeks worth of bottles and pasteurising is soo worth it in sales, and how your kids interact with everyone for the rest of their lives...not just the folks who raise them.

Like Tracy, I use only the first 12 hour milkings of colostrum out of girls from 3 to 8 years old. I heat treat all the colostrum from them and freeze it for next seasons use. Vicki

[mygoat]

Thanks Vicki. That's why I love this forum, I learn SO much. I think I will heat treat the colostrum as you say. Sounds pretty easy. My new doe will be freshening this year and is 5 years old, so I can use her colostrum! yay! LOL

[DocM]

Personally I freeze my colostrum, but on the lamancha list today, people did talk of canning it, and gave about 10,000 different recipes for it. I lost track and just figured out that since my pasteurizer is a low heat long dose type, my colostrum was fine - at least when I froze it, it still looked like yellowish milk. No pudding here. Hey, I don't know from canning. I do plan to try it this year, but for regular milk, not colostrum.

There are 8 pasteurizers on ebay right now, all under $150 dollars, if anyone is looking for a small 1 or 2 gallon sized.

[mare]

alot of good info, thanks every one!! now i have a question that i have been wondering about, actually more than one. if a doe has CAE can a human get it from drinking the milk and if a doe has CL is that transmittable through the milk, does it change anything if it is pasturized? what about making soap with milk from goats with these things?

[mygoat]

I know people can drink the milk from goats with CAE. Kids should not, they should be raised on CAE prevention. Goats with CL should be culled; They could have a cyst that pops and spreads to other goats, yes, but it can also burst in thier udder, causing contaminated milk. Humans can get CL too.

[AnnaS]

I always have cow colostrum, fresh or frozen, on hand as a backup in case I Jello the colostrum- it is hard to keep at 60C on a gas stove, even with a double boiler. ONLY get colostrum from tested Johnnes free herds who are vaccinating their cows for CD Tet. Your State dept of animal health can tell you who has Johnnes free herds in your area. While you are at the dairy farm, ask where they buy their chemicals. It is sooo much cheaper to pick them up locally than have them shipped.

I have had success with the thermos method with colostrum at 60C after 60 minutes. I use a 1 qt Thermos and wrap in several towels.

[doodles]

Vicki,
At how many hours-days do you stop considering it colostrum? Is the 12 hour labeled different?
How much do you feel a kid should eat in the first 24 hours? Do you start them on regular milk on the second day?