So confused about CAE and CL

[southerngurl]

I don't know what to do here. I have never had goats before, though I've had just about everything else.

I have been looking for some milk does already bred, for my grandpa and myself. I have been having a hard time find some near (not a good time of year obviously). I briefly read about CAE and CL and just assumed that it wasn't terribly common. One breeder I spoke with acted like CAE was rabies or something, that if they test positive they have to be destroyed etc. She didn't have any for sale however.

So I contacted a lady in town who I saw had raw goats milk for sale, to see if she was selling any goats. Turns out she had about 80 goats and her husband said she needed to sell some, too many goats. She had several different dairy breeds and her does were $125 each. They were pretty much all bred, several different ages. Sounded great so I went out there with a truck I could haul them in, drug my poor papa out there LOL. She had nice looking goats, in good condition, they had escaped while she was out of town this week, so they're sorta running rampant. Some needed hoof trimming and some appeared to have been disbudded improperly. They were very friendly and would rub on you and wanted to be petted. So I asked if they had been tested for CAE, fully expecting to here "yea, they're negative", but she said no. Oh, I thought.. then she said, some of them had CAE when I bought them, some have CL. From my understanding, this was like saying oh yes, some of my cats have feline luekemia or yea, they were bit by rabid raccons or something. She acted like the diseases weren't a big deal. I didn't know what to think... I decided I needed to get better educated on this, because I hadn't had anyone say that these diseases weren't really so serious, typically. She said that in the spring she might get a few abcesses, that she had about 6 last year to lance and she sterilized everything. I didn't notice any goats with CAE symptoms. So I left without any goats and I called another lady who the lady that was so worried about CAE said was a good breeder and would probably help me find good goats, and would make sure to get me "clean goats". I knew that this lady also knew the breeder with the CAE and CL goats, so I wanted her opinion.

She said when she first got into goats, she was obsessed with it and tested and did everything to keep her goats clean. Then at a seminar, she talked to someone who had done experiments where they took CAE negative does, bred them and removed the kids at birth and fed them pastuerized milk and a percentage of them STILL had CAE. She said they are now learning it can spread through the air? In the end she decided that pastuerizing the milk all the years had actually made the goats less hardy and it is better to just cull goats that are symptomatic, leaving the healthier goats to survive. She has a bunch of goats, I believe she said seventy something. She said in the last 10 years, she has had about 2-3 abcesses to deal with, and she's culled a couple of does that were sick with the CAE. I read the 80% of the goats in the US have CAE? I also read there has not been one case in the US of a human contracting CL? I now know several people who have been drinking raw milk from CL goats without symptom.

So I'm just totally confused.

I want my papa to get a good doe, but I'm having a hard time finding any. One lady wanted $800 for hers (I guess that's why she still had some.. this is Arkansas!). I just want a good milk goat, I dont' want to show or anything. I've never dealt with a species where 80 percent of them had a disease that is considered such a problem?

[Key]

Hooray for you that you are taking time to research goats before making a purchase. My advice is simply to avoid CAE and CL like the plague. They are helpful links with tons of info on the net, and I see you have read some about them based on your post. Who wants to voluntarily bring in diseased animals? CAE can be a long, lingering death for your prized pets, and abcesses.....who wants to deal with draining wounds that could possibly infect you or your animals?! Please continue your research and buy clean animals. You will be happy you did from the get-go.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

I have friends in Arkansas...a moderator on dairygoatinfo.com Kaye White and Sharon Miller also on that site and both post here on occasion, who have clean healthy stock, who have milkers for sale in the spring for alot less than $800. Most folks who show test, we can't shave a doe for a show and have an abscess crop up, CAE in registered dairy goats, will simply put you out of busniess eventually. ALL of us have does who freshen in the spring with udders we can not show, (in most instances a new person could not even show you the fault they carry) who go on to live healthy happy lives in homes where they are family milkers. And they also end up with daughters eventually in the show ring So no you don't want show stock, but the culls out of herds who show are a very good deal.

You are correct to do exactly what you are doing, ask questions. You can't see chronic disease all the time. The hard udder of CAE is only felt after freshening, you wouldn't necessarily find it in a dry doe. Swollen knees aren't usually found in CAE animals anymore, until after the stress of the move. Same with CL abscess, she has 6 abscess to clean every spring because it's after kidding, after the stress of kidding, they pop up...so after the stress of the move to your new home you will have abscess to deal with.

Yes it is like a cat and feline lukemia...buying a puppy with hip displacia...sure they can go on and live happy lives, and some won't ever show symptoms (I had a doe who was put down at 12 who was positive for CAE, no swollen knees ever yet her sister the same age was terribly arthritic from it), others do and some when very young. But most do go on toshow symtoms and it's awful. Worse is that when you then try to sell animals out of your goats, you do have to also say "My goats were purchased from a lady who has CAE and CL"...and feel about yourself exactly how you feel about the lady when you have to explain the scars from abscess.
.................................................. ..............................
Then at a seminar, she talked to someone who had done experiments where they took CAE negative does, bred them and removed the kids at birth and fed them pastuerized milk and a percentage of them STILL had CAE. She said they are now learning it can spread through the air?
.................................................. ................................

I will go way out on a limb here and tell you that this statement is simply a lie. And 80% of tests sent in right now are not testing positive, but yes, in the late 80's when we did test, more than 80% of our does were positive, and it was the norm. We pooled raw colostrum and raw milk to feed our kids, so everything one doe in the barn had...all our kids had (and really how stupid was that). It is not an airborne disease anymore than HIV is. Countries who tout being CAE negative, like England...yes of the goats that are tested they are CAE negative because it is folks wanting to sell milk and gain entry to shows (where you must be CAE negatvie)...but the country is not CAE negative. Same here in the USA, if asked I would doubt that of the goats being tested at the labs this year that even 10% if even that are positive, yet does that mean only 10% of goats in america are positive...no, because most are not tested.

Take it slow, there are lots of nice animals out there, don't buy anything because you feel sorry for it...and I know exactly how you feel walking into a herd of that many goats, out of their fence, trying to find something to eat, with their feet needing to be trimmed. That isn't something you want to take on. vicki

[southerngurl]

I will go way out on a limb here and tell you that this statement is simply a lie.

I really do not believe this woman was flat out lying to me. She wasn't trying to sell me anything so I don't see why she would. I just called her because I knew that she knew both of these breeders with totally different opinions on this issue. She was very helpful and I asked her a lot of questions.

Unless their was a miscommunication and I thought she was talking about CAE when she was talking about CL. We mainly talked about CAE though.

[ForMyACDs]

It's never a good idea to start out with animals who are likely to carry a disease that not only could potentially cripple them, but could seriously affect your ability to sell kids. HOWEVER, when CL is involved RUN the other way!! CAE only affects goats........I suppose if you're okay with that then that's fine tho' it could potentially affect your milk supply if your doe is affected and winds up with a hard udder. However, CL is not only something that is INCREDIBLY hard to eliminate from your property once it arrives but it's also possible to get an infection from it yourself.

No, CAE is not passed on my air. Like AIDS it is passed by body fluids (blood/milk). The virus itself is quite fragile and when the body fluids dry the virus is dead. However, CAE positive does that are milking could potentially affect others in the herd by dripping milk (dripping on to the hay strewn on the floor that is then ingested by one of the other does) or if she has a small injury that bleeds (does knocking scurs off each other in dominance tussles is not uncommon and can result in some blood transfer). As for kids who are positive after being fed strictly pasturized milk.......were they fed heat treated colostrum? Were they taken at birth and washed clean of the birthing fluids immediately? Were the kids fed pasturized CAE positive milk (it's easy to get a batch that may not have been quite to the right temp that still might have the virus)? Sorry, but there are several things that need to happen in order to pull kids from CAE positive does besides just feeding pasturized milk. She may not have been intentionally lying to you......if she truly believes what she's saying then she's just plain misinformed.

I would be worried that this person is selling raw milk from does who are developing CL abcesses.......sounds like FAR too much of a risk to me!

Your best bet is to get a doe from someone that does NOT have abcesses that tests for CAE. If not that then at least someone that raises their animals on CAE prevention but not having abcesses is probably the most important of the two. Right now it's going to be hard to see an abcess on an animal with all their winter hair so you better be sure you trust the person you're purchasing from. If you can wait until the spring when show people are culling animals from their show herds that's probably your best bet.

Above all else......if you want healthy animals DON'T purchase at an auction!!!!

Good luck

[southerngurl]

I am just going to get some clean goats, since my property is clean and everything.

I don't understand about the CL though. Is there anywhere I can see information where someone actually did get CL from a goat? It seems everyone should be running around with abcesses LOL.

I especially want to make sure the goat my grandpa gets is clean from the CL. He's older and has kind of weak lungs. I'd hate for it to settle in his lungs (if it can in humans).

Should I be ok if I get a written agreement that the goats are negative for these diseases? Or should I see negative test results?

[susanne]

in the ideal world you would go to the breeder of your choice and look at every animal. feel along the side where the lymphnodes are. look for scars. feel the udder and make sure it feels soft with no hard spots or lumps. it also should be even. to see actual test results would be a good idea too.
two years ago i had two boer does i wanted to sell. the girl that was interessted came out and draw blood from them. when test came back to her satisfaction she took the goats home. for her it was very important to have an up to date result. cl is nothing i want to deal with. scares the heck out of me.
in your conversation with the breeder there might have been a missunderstanding about cae. this virus is in the same family as hiv in humans or feline leukemia in cats. since you mentioned the last one in your post i assume you know that this is not contracted through breathing the same air?
cae is only contracted through white blood cells or body protein.
there is only a very very slim chance that kids get infected during kidding.
the high percentage positive numbers is an estimate because so many don't test and have a false understanding of raising kids on preventative measures.
i also read so often to heat treat colostrum in a thermos bottle. i believe here are the most mistakes. wondering how many really test the temp from colostrum after an hour when it comes out?
milk is pasteurized in old pasteurizers. how many really control the temperature? those are things some breeder feel too secure and don't test because they raise kids on heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk.
how many of the breeder put every kid separate and have it bathed or at least complitely dry before it goes together with the siblings where they suck each other because searching for milk?
do i believe 80% are infected? definately yes. i wish we would have the same system as in england or germany or france. have the animal tested before shows.

[wardarden]

I have to post a question in relation to this; reading about heat treating/pasturizing milk and feeding back to kids. I am a very small time goat keeper and as long as I know that my does are CL/CAE negative, why would I not want to let the does raise their kids naturally, the way God intended? Some people I have heard of wouldn't dare let a kid nurse from it's mom!

[dezeeuwgoats]

I had a similiar experience in learning about CAE/CL. It was terribly frustrating to learn that goats aren't something you can just 'get into'. It took me so much longer to get my goats than I wanted it to!

You can ignore the facts, or you can get the animals you are interested in tested. I wouldn't take anyone's word for it, unless you had a working relationship with them over time, and even then I'd test just in case.

I like peace of mind, and no fuzzy-grey areas to worry about. I think there's a lot about CAE transmission that we really don't understand or know.

Niki

[susanne]

Originally Posted by wardarden

I have to post a question in relation to this; reading about heat treating/pasturizing milk and feeding back to kids. I am a very small time goat keeper and as long as I know that my does are CL/CAE negative, why would I not want to let the does raise their kids naturally, the way God intended? Some people I have heard of wouldn't dare let a kid nurse from it's mom!

are those animals you raised on heat treated colostrum and pasteurized milk your self? absolutly sure you or one of your family member did not make a mistake?
yeah sure, i don't see why you should not let the kids nurse at their dams. there is no wrong or right answer to this.
would i buy a kid from you? i have to say NO.

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

why would I not want to let the does raise their kids naturally, the way God intended?
.......................................

You don't 100% know for sure that your doe is ever negative for CAE. You don't have to test very long before it's quite easy to figure out.

The way God intended it was that goats lived a very nomadic life, in dry dry arid regions. As soon as you shut the gate behind your goat and start feeding it, it's no longer natural. We trim feet because the soil is wet and we feed protein to get milk/meat/fast growth, we worm because our goats live on the same area for years, we vaccinate because our goats live in too small of areas with confinement...........Yes our goats milk more, have more meat on the bone, and live a great deal longer, if you unnaturally take care of them.

In a nomadic culture, the baby goats would have only been kept alive IF they wanted to grow out another milk herd for a daughter to take into a new marriage...a dowry, or they had older milkers and wanted a replacement. Young kids were dinner on the hoof, and were butchersed for meat as needed, most meat was dried..meat was actually used like the asians, to compliment the meal not be a main course, except for holidays and special occasions. The stomachs of the baby goats who had only ingested colostrum were taken out, dried, cut into piecies and used as rennet to culture the raw milk into cheese, no refridgeration meant little to no raw fresh milk ever drank, most milk was fermented or made into very dry cheeses.

Not a heck of alot of anything natural when you read up on it. Vicki