Took my 2 goats to be bred, now one is dead

bbbuddy · #1 11/08/06, 12:38 PM

I had two goats, the mama is an "almost Kinder" (half Nubian,1/4 Pygmy,1/4 Angora) and her daughter was 1/2 Nigerian. So I took them both back to the Nigerian breeder the mama went to last year so they could both be bred.
I got a call a little while ago, Texas (the 7 month old daughter) jumped the fence and was killed by coyotes, said the breeder.

Needless to say I am upset. She had not been handled much by the lady I bought them from, and I spent a lot of time winning her over to being a very friendly but slightly shy little thing. Was really looking forward to her babies as well.
At 7 months she was the same size as the full Nigerians, so she was going to be bigger, which is a good thing...

So, while it was a shock, the breeder was asking me what I wanted to do...one of her goats, or a free breeding, or she could look around for another goats for me...I told her it was too early to think about, give me some time...

ChickenMom · #2 11/08/06, 01:04 PM

I'm so sorry! How awful.

dap · #3 11/08/06, 02:22 PM

Awww, that is terrible! I have had to win my Nigerian Dwarf doe over too, and I know how bad I'd feel if anything happened to her. The breeder sounds like she feels pretty bad about it too. I'm so sorry for your loss...

goatmarm · #4 11/08/06, 02:43 PM

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bbbuddy · #5 11/08/06, 03:14 PM

Yes she was upset. I had tried to get her to let me bring one of her junior bucks here for breeding, she almost said yes. Bet she wishes she had. We have some BIG dogs, the coyotes stay away good now. Even my ducks which stay out at night in summer have been safe.

Well, my half "almost Kinder" half Nigerian wasn't "worth" as much as her purebred Nigerians were...but I didn't WANT Nigerians, I wanted the good milk but a larger goat, like th Kinders or mini-Nubians. Maybe I should take one of her Nigerians and have it bred to a Nubian buck...although I know that is backwards breedingwise, I understand it is done and often succesful...or if my "almost Kinder" has a buckling I could breed the Nigerian doe to it next year...

What do you all think?

**mygoat** · #6 11/08/06, 03:23 PM

you should never cross a small doe to a larger buck, ever. It causes kids that are too big and oftentimes the mother and/or kids die in labor. If you want more mid sized kids, ask that breeder to look around for mini nubians, mini lamanchas, or other mini breeds; They're larger than the nigerians but not full size.

bbbuddy · #7 11/08/06, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goatmarm

Sorry to hear about the doeling. You certainly don't expect a call like that when you send a doe out to be bred. I'd be concerned about leaving the other doe there for much longer. If the breeder is willing to replace the doe I would cosider taking her up on the offer. Just be sure to check the health of the replacement animal. You don't want a CL/CAE positive doe.

I guess it is a fluke, after all they have about 50 goats there. She supposedly has Championship Nigerians, and shows etc. I'm guessing she "took a chance" taking my goats to breed because she knew who owned them before, the doeling was from one of her bucks, and we live in the middle of nowhere on land that was just opened up to 40 acre plots, no previous animals here ever except range cows....

I'm guessing a replacement doe will be about my only option...
poor little Texas was such a sweetie, I REALLY liked her...

TexCountryWoman · #8 11/08/06, 03:46 PM

I'm so sorry for the loss of your doe. When you put time and love into a special one that was a little wild, and get them to trust you, there is indeed a bond. I find it interesting that she has 50 goats and a coyote problem and no livestock guardian dogs. I think it is strange that only your goat was killed. Ask her for a "bred" replacement doe as that is what you were supposed to get back from her anyway. Make sure it is not a cull and is to your liking. No duds as you are the "injured party". be friendly about it. She has enough goats to chose from that you should come away satisfied. keep your relationship intact.

HappyFarmer · #9 11/08/06, 03:48 PM

I'm probably off the beaten path here.

If I were in your shoes I would graciously decline the breeders replacement doe offer. IMO it was my risk for taking the doe. I knew the risk. The breeder, although the doe was in their care, I would not hold responsible. Coyotes attacking are not within the breeders realm of control, perhaps the fence is, but hey, we're talking goats here.

Also, the cost of a replacement will make the breeder think twice about taking does in for breeding-then where would you take your does??? Yes, I'm sure they feel terrible, but perhaps a free breeding in the future will help with their feelings.

I'm sorry for your loss. It is never easy to lose one.
HF

bbbuddy · #10 11/08/06, 04:22 PM

Well, I think my goat got out to get to her mama, and that was when the coyotes got her.
You know, I never even thought about them not being safe, she is a long time breeder, supposed to be an expert, with alot of goats.

I guess I should not have assumed safety...
so Happy Farmer, you think it's ok for me to go with two does and come home with one, and a "promise" of future breeding?

I don't want to be vengeful in any way, but I also don't want to be a sap...

bbbuddy · #11 11/08/06, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mygoat

you should never cross a small doe to a larger buck, ever. It causes kids that are too big and oftentimes the mother and/or kids die in labor. If you want more mid sized kids, ask that breeder to look around for mini nubians, mini lamanchas, or other mini breeds; They're larger than the nigerians but not full size.

Well that's what I would have thought until I read that thread a couple weeks ago about an accidental breeding, and there were so many that had bred small does to large bucks with no problems...

HappyFarmer · #12 11/08/06, 04:57 PM

bbbbuddy,

This is just what I would do. You do what you feel is right-there's nothing wrong with that. There are different ways to look at this....Do what you think is best.

With all the diseases within goat herds these days, I look at it like she did you a favor by opening up her herd for you to breed your goat(s). (breeding fees seperate issue). It seems to me that is a friendly gesture, especially since she has a higher value goat herd(??). I won't open my herd for a fellow breeder-so she's a better person than I. Too many risks for me. My herd is clean & I intend to keep it that way. It doesn't sound like she required testing of any sort.

Weigh the pro's and the cons. Are you reliant on her for breeding if she closes her herd for breeding? Do you like her Stock? Do you have the capacity to keep your own buck? Would you be "improving" your herd by accepting her replacement? Did you know she had no livestock protection? Did you inspect the fence/property? Was she hesitant to bring her buck to your farm? Why? She appears to be a reputable breeder. Would you accept her word or get it in writing? Was there a contract? What was the agreement? Does she breed does regularly? Is it a reasonable cost, or a rip off? Not being fecious here but these questions are running through my head. I don't really expect an answer, please don't feel obligated.

Yes, I would walk away with one goat instead of two, and consider getting my own buck. I would make sure it was indeed coyotes of course.

Do what you feel is right.
HF

mammawof3 · #13 11/08/06, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbbuddy

Well that's what I would have thought until I read that thread a couple weeks ago about an accidental breeding, and there were so many that had bred small does to large bucks with no problems...

BUT is it WORTH the possible loss of the doe? You just never know with such a breeding--a friend had 3 pygmy does get bred (accidently) by Boer X buck-since they were w/pygmy buck she never thought--at kidding only 1 doe survived-it's pulled kid died--one doe died trying to kid--the last she ended up shooting when obviously could not pass the huge kid!

bbbuddy · #14 11/08/06, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyFarmer

bbbbuddy,

This is just what I would do. You do what you feel is right-there's nothing wrong with that. There are different ways to look at this....Do what you think is best.

With all the diseases within goat herds these days, I look at it like she did you a favor by opening up her herd for you to breed your goat(s). (breeding fees seperate issue). It seems to me that is a friendly gesture, especially since she has a higher value goat herd(??). I won't open my herd for a fellow breeder-so she's a better person than I. Too many risks for me. My herd is clean & I intend to keep it that way. It doesn't sound like she required testing of any sort.

Weigh the pro's and the cons. Are you reliant on her for breeding if she closes her herd for breeding? Do you like her Stock? Do you have the capacity to keep your own buck? Would you be "improving" your herd by accepting her replacement? Did you know she had no livestock protection? Did you inspect the fence/property? Was she hesitant to bring her buck to your farm? Why? She appears to be a reputable breeder. Would you accept her word or get it in writing? Was there a contract? What was the agreement? Does she breed does regularly? Is it a reasonable cost, or a rip off? Not being fecious here but these questions are running through my head. I don't really expect an answer, please don't feel obligated.

Yes, I would walk away with one goat instead of two, and consider getting my own buck. I would make sure it was indeed coyotes of course.

Do what you feel is right.
HF

I don't HAVE a herd. I HAD 2 goats, for milk. The mama, who gives me EXCELLENT milk, and the 7 month doe, who I planned on getting good milk from. I figured if they were both bred this one time, I would very probably get at least one buckling, and then could rebreed my own goats after that. For milk. Extras kids to get eaten. I have/had NO plans for any more goats than that. SO no it isn't gonna be a bad thing if they can't go back for breeding. I mean she. There is no they now...
She had never met me or seen my place, and I have to say, MY place is a lot nicer than hers...
but she has been in goats a long time, what do I know? If her stock is safe, so would mine be, right? That's as far as I thought, or didn't think.
She had bred my mama goat for the lady I bought it from before, because they were friends. That lady recommended her highly, as being an expert about goats.
Me, I just wanted good milk and the ability to keep it flowing

HappyFarmer · #15 11/08/06, 07:16 PM

[QUOTE=HappyFarmer]
Was she hesitant to bring her buck to your farm? Why?
[End QUOTE=HappyFarmer]

The answer I was hoping for here is RISK.

She was hesitant to bring her buck to your farm because there is a risk associated with doing so (coyotes, broken fences, shipping stress, feed changes, environment changes, goat hierarchy, etc). It had nothing to do with how nice either place looks. I didn't mean to offend you with the question.

It sounds like you are wanting a doe. I hope you get a nice one.
HF

bbbuddy · #16 11/08/06, 08:31 PM

[QUOTE=HappyFarmer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by HappyFarmer

Was she hesitant to bring her buck to your farm? Why?
[End QUOTE=HappyFarmer]

The answer I was hoping for here is RISK.

She was hesitant to bring her buck to your farm because there is a risk associated with doing so (coyotes, broken fences, shipping stress, feed changes, environment changes, goat hierarchy, etc). It had nothing to do with how nice either place looks. I didn't mean to offend you with the question.

It sounds like you are wanting a doe. I hope you get a nice one.
HF

You are making many assumptions, and you know what happens when you do that.

She did't know us and has never seen our place, that's all. We have no broken fences, we have guard dogs, there are no other goats here, feed is easy to duplicate, shipping equals a ride in our truck.. you went from "hey just my suggestion" to sounding like you have an agenda...
Enough already.

bbbuddy · #17 11/08/06, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mammawof3

BUT is it WORTH the possible loss of the doe? You just never know with such a breeding--a friend had 3 pygmy does get bred (accidently) by Boer X buck-since they were w/pygmy buck she never thought--at kidding only 1 doe survived-it's pulled kid died--one doe died trying to kid--the last she ended up shooting when obviously could not pass the huge kid!

Yes mamawof3 you are right, I just read about so many that have done it.

pookshollow · #18 11/08/06, 08:44 PM

I'm really sorry to hear about the loss of your goat. I lost one about a month ago and I was pretty upset - she was a sweet little Nigerian.

One thing that occurs to me - if you only have the mama goat left, isn't she going to be lonely now? If it was me, I would take a replacement goat for that reason alone, unless you are able to find another of the breed you want. You could always sell the replacement down the road if and when you find what you really want.

nursefarmer · #19 11/08/06, 09:10 PM

Oh my God,so many bittersweet memories.I started out raising pygmies.I attended the shows,talked to the breeders...bought my seed stock...all the while the pygmy breeders kept on their smiles,took my money,sold me bred does...encouraged me to breed,what a grand idea.....until kidding time arrived,out of 7 does-the best money could buy,"top" show stock-you know the ones,thee shortest,most compact,most "desirable" animals with all the right bloodlines...out of my seven angels,only ONE kidded without problem.these goats are DYSTOCIA city

Crying myself to sleep at night,wondering what I did wrong,hmmph.It was then,while attempting to ease my sorrows,all my "friends" told me of the pygmy show world's dirty little secret.Person after person,"Well,yeah,that judge always brings her does to the vet and boards them there so that when it is time for kidding,the vet can automatically do a c-section,because that show doe can NOT pass any kids through her pelvis"..."No,not really,that is a 'show' doe,not a 'breeder' doe,we wouldn't let her kid on her own,she wouldn't make it".......the "enlightening "comments continued.I don't need to ramble on here about the incredible INSANITY of the cute little pygmies owner's dirty little secret...I almost got out of goats forever because of this miserable time .Thank You Jesus for allowing the circumstances to unfold,and to inroduce me to NIGERIAN dwarves,who's top show animals ARE the breeding does one wants,and animals who are bred for production,and ease of kidding.Then came LaManchas,and my life has never been the same - thankfully.I am writing all this because I shudder when people say 'breed' and 'pygmy' in the same sentence.Pygmies are NOT bred to be production/dairy/functional animals.Pygmies are the materialized vision of a 'whim',or what was deemed 'cute'.Let my wounded heart tell you,there is nothing cute about trying to manipulate kids out of their hemmoraging(spell)screaming dam while tears run down your face because you realize they are dead,and then she has to be put down as well,because her uterus is torn.My message is this,if you love the minis-stay with the Nigerians,yes ,they have some trouble,like all does occaisionally,of all breeds.I just wouldn't play with fire(pygmies).Any "pygmies" I do hear of that kid easily,do so because they are the larger 'old' type (NIGERIAN type) or they are really part Nigerain,and the owner coins them 'pygmy' just because they are small.Please be careful when you are "mix and matching" with the mini breeds,for your hearts sake,and theirs !!!

Thanks for listening guys,-C

PygmyLover · #20 11/08/06, 09:35 PM

I am partly with HappyFarmer here. There were great points made.

My only objection is that they were under her care and protection so there should be some compensation. But I would first tell the breeder that you don't hold her responsible but if she really wanted to replace the doe you will take it. But I would NOT demand it since you also took the risk and sometimes things happen out of our control.

You made the choice to send your goats there, it is NOT ALL her fault that an accident happend.