GOAT POLIO-Part 2

[Jcran]

Last Saturday, about 10 days ago, we suspected goat polio with our kid (previous post). Started thiamin on Sunday and ended doc prescribed on Friday. He did his 5 days of therapy with thiamin and probiotics and he really, really improved. I took my daughter for the weekend to Sacto to family reunion/Disney on Ice with my hubbie home to watch the goats...note to self: don't trust hubbie to watch goats. Sunday afternoon when we got home the kid was worse off than 10 days ago. Really wobbly, easy to catch. Gave him 2 1/2 cc IM thiamin at 4:45, at 10 p.m., then this morning. He is still alive, and walking, but so wobbly. Gave him baking soda water, and more probiotics also. My question is: how much can I give him for how long. Any and all advice appreciated

[Jcran]

Anyone out there? Right now I'm just thinking folks out there are saying "what a knucklehead she is"....I'm off to the vets to bug him...I wonder if I need to restart the procaine penicillin.

[lamanchagoatgrl]

I would help if I could. Sorry! I've been in goats my whole life, and never experienced Polio in them.

[moonspinner]

A friend had a doe go through polio and she treated with thiamine for a week straight, then B complex for the next three weeks. I think she also had her on Pen G the first week too. It took the goat a good month to even start getting back to normal. She went on to be successfully bred and healthy.

[fishhead]

No I don't think anyone is thinking that.

Have you read the usual websites for advice?

Here's what Goat Health Handbook has to say about polioencehalomalacia. I'm assuming that is what you are talking about.

No fever. Young animals show muscle tremors, grind teeth, roll eyes, no appetite. Circling, head pressing, blindness, convulsions, overreaction to touch, jumpiness, head usually will pull back.
May be from mold on feed breaking down B1 vitamin and usually seen in animals on a high grain diet.

Treatment thiamine injections, 5-10 mg/kg, one-half of the dosage IV and the other half IM. Additional half doses every 12 hours until animal has recovered. Should see some improvement by 2-3 days.

Good luck!

[fishhead]

Diseases of the goat.

Possible additional causes.

Prolonged diarrhoea from coccidiosis, drug therapy thiabendazole, levamisole and amprolium.

Treatment.

Thiamine, 10 mg/kg IV, 1ml/10 kg (Vitamin B1) every 6 hours for 24 hours. Multivitamins preparations can be used if thiamine is not available, but must be given according to the thiamine content.

Support therapy with corticosteroids, diuretics and hypertonic intravenous drips may aid recovery by reducing the cerebral oedema.

In humans overdosing on B vitamins just turns your urine bright yellow and since it's water soluble any extra just gets flushed out.

[Jcran]

Thanks! I went back and reread stuff and am WAY up on dosages of procaine penicillin. I am giving 2.4 cc every 6 hours as I am wondering if after all the thiamin he doesn't actually have listeriosis. I am also giving thiamin IM and subQ 2x/day at a dose of 2.5 cc; I gave him electrolytes last night but I do think he's nursing. I feel (more emotional/gut? than anything) that he seems a LITTLE better this morning. My neighbor is coming over at lunch to give him his lunch shot of procaine pen and electrolytes.

[moonspinner]

Lister. and polio can fool you as to which is which. I would do what you did in the beginning when your goat appeared to improve. Definitely I'd keep the B going and make sure to keep up the probiotics.

[DocM]

Here's my experience - and I do think individual goats come through it differently. I had two goats come down with it - suspected some moldy feed. Treated one with 5 days of thiamine, she was up and around and practically normal the second day - was turned out with the other goats, and is doing great. The other one, this is a repeat case. She had it 2 years ago about this same time. She was very sick for three weeks. Even after, she has acted a little "slow", as if the deficiency made her a bit brain damaged. She came down with it again when the above doe did - that was 2 weeks ago. Been treating her agressively with thiamine, and today, for the first time in 2 weeks, she was able to get up by herself (I've had her in an improvised sling, so wobbly). I think you just have to keep treating them until they get better, or whenever you decide they're not going to - it does cause brain damage. I suspect my little doe I'm still treating may have even had a stroke, although I'm confident she will come out of it well enough to continue kidding and milking. I would hate to put her down because of her bloodlines, and I'm willing to be up every two hours all night to get her up and walking around. Hang in there.

[DocM]

I forgot to add - I didn't bother treating either with penn after the initial dose of thiamine brought them out of it a bit - I start penn only if I don't see an improvement with thiamine. Be sure you're giving your goat enough - they need 100mg per 10kg of body weight. (about 3 cc's per 65 lbs) If you're using B complex instead of straight thiamine, you may not be giving enough. Most B complex are only 12.5 mg B1 per CC.

[fishhead]

I think listeriosis is fairly quick so if you haven't been treating it I would expect him to be gone already.

Pen G is supposed to be relatively safe and the dose can be fairly high. My vet said a 10 day maximum.

Here's my experience with the disease.

day one a 25-30 pound wether didn't seem right. The temp was 106.5 F. I gave him 5 cc of Pen G.,

day 2 I gave him 1 cc of Pen G, he was a little better,

day 3 I gave him 1 cc of Pen G, he was even better and based on faulty information I stopped treatment. The information did not come from my vet.

day 4 he was almost normal and I expected him to be 100% on day 5.

day 5 he was extremely weak, emaciated looking, head tilted to the left and he couldn't close his mouth. I mistakenly waited until the morning of day 6 to put him down.

[Jcran]

Yep, I think I've UNDERDOSED, and I think I remember Vicki warning me of such; I am praying the upped dose will save him. He IS up and he DOES try to run from me when I enter the pen (the big fat lady with the sharp things is coming! RUN AWAY!) but he is not eating anything to really speak of (I think he's nursing and I'm giving him electrolytes), and he wobbles when he is standing still. Of course last night, reading about neurologic stuff, one article warned of rabies which sent me reeling...I've had my hand in his mouth for days. I am sure as heck hoping that it's not that! But as he IMPROVED with the initial treatment, I'm thinking I'm ok (visions of old yeller have haunted me all morning).

[DocM]

The first time my goat was ill with polio, she wouldn't eat. I took alfalfa cubes and ground them up in the blender, with water, and tubed them into her (she still had gut sounds). It worked great. Does he have gut sounds? Is he pooping at all? Peeing? I'd lay off the probios if you've already dosed him and try some plain yogurt (with culture). Can you milk and give him a bottle? Maybe some of those horse treats made with fruit and crushed up alfalfa too.

[Jcran]

Yeah, I'm jumping into the yogurt tonight...as long as I see him nurse tonight, I'm going to try avoiding tubing; I don't have enough experience and I don't want to stress him out too badly...I am hoping the electrolytes and nursing will give him enough energy until he is hungry. I added a little red cell this morning; any thoughts on the use of that?