ND doe x Saanen buck - abort or not?

manygoatsnmore · #1 10/29/06, 12:07 PM

My dd was given a Nigie doe yesterday. The problem is that the doe managed to get herself in with a Saanen buck about 2 weeks ago. the breeder recommended Lute to abort her, and then re-breeding her to a ND buck. The next breeder recommended letting her go to term, saying the doe's size determines the size of the kids.

I've heard both sides of this debate many times before, and I have (when I was brand new to goats many years ago), bred a larger Pygmy doe to a Saanen buck. The doe delivered a nice, medium sized doe kid without difficulty, and repeated the breeding the next year with triplet kids.

I'm really torn between Lute-ing her and letting her carry to term. Opinions, experiences? I'll need to make the decision pretty quickly, or it will be made for me. Can't call the vet until tomorrow, regardless, so I'm taking this time to think on it.

She is a very small doe, 6 years old, looks much younger, wild - has not been handled, and is not registered due to a paperwork tangle with her sire having been sold numerous times without having the transfers done. Her dam is registered. She could be recorded grade as Native On Appearance ND. Her kids would basically be mini-Saanens (but backwards to the usual breeding) if she carries to term. If I aborted and bred her to a ND, the kids would be 50% recorded grades, and could be bred up over a few more generations to American status. I'm not even sure I would want to raise ND, as we already have LM, Obers, Alpines, and one last Nubian...

My gut feeling is that she would probably do just fine....but if I'm wrong, and something goes wrong, it'll be my fault. I don't want to cause harm to any animal in my care.

AllWolf · #2 10/29/06, 12:42 PM

If she was with a bigger buck and got pregant I would abort the baby because it will put a doe in danger at birth. It could kill her. I can not remember the name of the meds to help with this problem but you never want to have a smaller goat bred to a bigger goat. To dangerous. I have heard of other people breeding their smaller goats to bigger bucks and about half the time they lose either the doe or the baby or sometimes both.

Good Luck on your choice. Sorry I can't think of the name of drug to end it.

AllWolf · #3 10/29/06, 12:47 PM

I think this is the drug name Lutalyse Used to bring a doe into heat or cause an abort of a early pregnancy not desired. If a doe has an unwanted breeding, wait 11 days and then give her a shot of lutalyse.

I done some research on that part. That is how I found the name. Forgive me for not knowing the name at first.

Good Luck.

dosthouhavemilk · #4 10/29/06, 01:20 PM

The size of the doe does have some role in the size the kids will be. We see it in cattle all the time.
The size of the pelvis is also important, especially in cases like this.
We had a larger Pygmy doe that was bred to a LaMancha/Alpine twice, a Nubian once, the Nubian's son once, her son one year and then a Boer/Saanen the last year. In order she had a singleton, twins, triplets, twins, twins, and lastly a backwards single buckling. He had to be helped out...actually pulled with the last few contractions. He was big. She got an infection in her uterus we didn't catch in time and then developed pnuemonia on top of it. We lost her at 7 years old.
WE have a doe currently of unknown breeding, but judging by her size and her udder, I would say she is quite probably a mini-Nubian. In any case she has miniature in her breeding somewhere. She was bred to a Boer last year and had a little problem with the first kid (but it was her first kid ever and so they need to stretch). This year she is settled to our Nubian.

I think it would depend on the does size. Do you know anything about her kidding history? Easy kidder? Small pelvis? Etc?

KSALguy · #5 10/29/06, 02:32 PM

some does do great, some dont, like with any other breeding, you can run into problems with ANY animal giveing birth,

i have seen pygme does give birth to kids from both Nubians and Boers, and i have seen pygmes have extreem complications when bred to another pygme, it all depends on what body type she is and how much experiance she has and how much help you can offer.
i lost a pygme doe who was accedentally bred to a nubian for her first kidding, but i have seen her mother deliver perfectly healthy kids when bred to the same buck

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #6 10/29/06, 04:03 PM

Well you will get no symantics from me. Abort her. If you are on here asking this question you have to have concerns about this. Sure she could live through this, the kids could also, but more importantly they all may not. A very expensive C section is likely in your future. 2cc of lutelyse given at 21 days...and you aren't even sure she is bred if it was only 2 weeks ago, if she comes into heat in the next week or so, the point is moot. And it's a huge difference between the body type of a large pygmy and a dairy ND doe.

What regestry would you be able to register the offspring with? Not ADGA, not AGS, the doe is unregistered, AGS has no upgrading system, everything is purbred in both ADGA and AGS when ND are concerned. Sounds like the seller of this doe was just passing off a problem for you to then handle. Both the abortion that she should have done before the sale, but also the paperwork...or should I say promise of any kids out of this doe being regsiterable, because unless it's a small registry which means no shows, there isn't. Vicki

moonspinner · #7 10/29/06, 04:12 PM

The way I approach, why take a chance? I'd be worried sick all the gestation, wondering if she would need a C-sec or a kid got stuck in there. Especially if you're saying she's a small doe to begin with. Lutalyse works very well, give her 2ml and in 2-3 days she will abort and you can start all over.

rivesjct3768 · #8 10/29/06, 04:39 PM

We have a Nigerian Dwarf and a Pygmy and have had no problems with them being bred to our Saanen buck to our ND and a Saanen cross (with Nubian doe) and delivering healthy kids. Our Nigerian Dwarf had a doeling the first time and triplet bucklings the second time. Our Pygmy (bred with the Saanen cross) had twins this time and lost one after two weeks time. They do look like miniature Saanens or they can be marked like their mothers. The kids are somewhat bigger full grown than their moms and just adorable. I would not abort in any case since I believe that an abortion can cause troubles with the doe. Just my 3 cents.

chma4 · #9 10/29/06, 05:33 PM

The problem lies in the number she is carrying. I have had full blood Nigerians get stuck and die because they had just one. If this doe has one, it WILL be a Csection or you WILL loose her. I would put a bet on it. If she has three, I would say she could be ok. Why take the chance. Its not worth it. Abort her, skip a cycle and rebreed. Nothing lost
GOOD LUCK

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #10 10/29/06, 11:56 PM

I would not abort in any case since I believe that an abortion can cause troubles with the doe. Just my 3 cents.
.........................

Lutelyse is a naturally occuring hormone in the does body, injecting her with it sloughs the pregnancy...she goes into labor, expells the contents of the uterus, just like she would at 5 months pregnant. Other than she will not be in milk and the kids are not viable, there is no difference between kidding early or kidding at term. She will also be in heat within 21 days if done now. So how is this going to cause trouble with the doe...well unless the herd is mostly republican and she will be shunned

Vicki

chamoisee · #11 10/30/06, 08:31 AM

Lutalyse her. She is a goat, not a person, and you are doing it for the purpose of saving her life.

Sweet Goats · #12 10/30/06, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chamoisee

Lutalyse her. She is a goat, not a person, and you are doing it for the purpose of saving her life.

I agree. I have had to use it and I have NEVER had any trouble with does getting bred when I want them to.

dezeeuwgoats · #13 10/30/06, 04:52 PM

I had a small nubian doe whom I bred the first time to a nigerian buck - she had a single doeling and she was enormous! I agree with those who say single kids are trouble. I realize my example of breeds is opposite yours - just wanted to show that even doing it safely with a small buck/larger breed doe a single kid can be trouble. The other way around I can't even imagine.

Niki

PTNTEXAS · #14 10/30/06, 07:43 PM

As far as your goat situation, theres been a good response I hope all the information from the board was helpful. I dont post that much but I read and learn and enjoy reading the post everyday. I wouldnt be true to myself though if I didnt add one more line about a comment in this thread . I wouldnt have thought I would feel the need on the Goat board butt....I am Republican and proud of it.

manygoatsnmore · #15 10/31/06, 02:34 PM

While it's true that she may not even be bred, I'm going to Lute her and call it good. Looking at her, she's just soooo tiny, and I'm not sure I could even get my arm into her to pull a kid if it was necessary.

No sense in taking a chance when Lute is cheap, easy, and prudent. Thanks to all who put in their thoughts and experiences.

Hey,Vickie, ya know, I don't think I've ever talked politics with my goats, but I'm pretty sure that they are mostly.......wait for it.....

INDEPENDENTS!!!

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #16 10/31/06, 07:41 PM

Or the green party, those tree hugger types

Make sure and wait on the lutelyse, giving it to early in gestation will do nothing. Give it at least 11 days, I just wait until 21, then if she comes into heat I don't give it...can't tell or no heat and she gets the injection. Vicki

Sweet Goats · #17 11/01/06, 11:03 AM

NO, my vet always says to give it 7-10 days after the date you think they were bred. He said that is the ideal time but you can go as far as 15 days but he would rather I not go that far.

Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians · #18 11/01/06, 01:36 PM

You barely have implantations by 7 days. And why use it at all until you know she for sure is bred, which she will tell you by not coming into heat at day 21 (or round about there). And sorry but if your vet is not a small ruminant specialist...well you know the rest, the information we use is not only from a ruminant specialist but a specialist in reproduction from Texas A&M (working on goats). Other than a doe who will not come back into heat for 33 days rather than 28 days there is no reason to give the drug that early...it is not easier for the doe to abort at day 10 than day 23. Other than you give the drug and it doesn't work because the Corpus Leutum has not formed for the lutelyse to slough. Vicki

PygmyLover · #19 11/03/06, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PTNTEXAS

I wouldnt have thought I would feel the need on the Goat board butt....I am Republican and proud of it.

Since it was brought up....so am I!!!!

Sweet Goats · #20 11/06/06, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians

You barely have implantations by 7 days. And why use it at all until you know she for sure is bred, which she will tell you by not coming into heat at day 21 (or round about there). And sorry but if your vet is not a small ruminant specialist...well you know the rest, the information we use is not only from a ruminant specialist but a specialist in reproduction from Texas A&M (working on goats). Other than a doe who will not come back into heat for 33 days rather than 28 days there is no reason to give the drug that early...it is not easier for the doe to abort at day 10 than day 23. Other than you give the drug and it doesn't work because the Corpus Leutum has not formed for the lutelyse to slough. Vicki

YES Vicki, He is a small ruminant specialist. I have never had a trouble. I always wait for the 10th day.