HELP! WEIRDNESS/ILLNESS in 8 week buckling

[Jcran]

I need your help! My fullblood boer doe kidded on Sept 1st with two really nice fullblood bucklings...10 lb each. She had been covex'ed and bo-se'd 2 weeks prior to kidding. At birth, each got 1/4 cc bo-se. On Oct. 15, gave each 3 cc covexin (thought the 5cc dose was a 3-poor light in barn) and started the 5 day regimin of 40%dimethoxy for coccidia prevention. About a week ago, I started mom and babies on PAYBACK boer goat developer r20 medicated (babies for growth, mom as she was thinning out due to lots of nursing). They also get alfalfa hay 1 flake twice a day. Well, in the past week, my biggest buckling has been kind of ooky. Last week he seemed kind of lethargic for a day but pulled out of it. Then yesterday I noticed he seemed sick.He is urinating normally but yesterday he really seemed to have a tummy ache. He wants to nurse constantly but doesn't really want to eat hay. He kind of lips the pellets but is not aggressively eating (he was two days ago). He is not coughing, his temp is 102.9 and there are reasonably normal breath sounds for a kid who is hollering as stethoscope is applied. His eyelid membranes are very pink, his mouth a little less. He weighs 40 lbs. and is 8 weeks old. Worries: gets down then up a lot, kind of weak on back legs? Seem stiff (but then I noticed buck kids tend to walk a little like that? kind of stalking thing). At 4 o'clock yesterday I gave him:
1 1/2 cc penicillin IM in case of pneumonia
5 cc c-d antitoxin (recommended as additional therapy even if pneumonia and a definite if its an enterotoxemia thing)
probiotic paste
baking soda in water drenched-about 30 cc for possible floppy kid
I have NOT noticed him making any pellets...there is definitely no diarrhea. Anyone seen anything like this?

[goatkid]

One more thing you might try is 3cc thiamine subQ. This sounds like it might be the start of goat polio. I give the thiamine twice a day for a couple days and then once a day for a few more days.

[AllWolf]

Originally Posted by Jcran

I need your help! My fullblood boer doe kidded on Sept 1st with two really nice fullblood bucklings...10 lb each. She had been covex'ed and bo-se'd 2 weeks prior to kidding. At birth, each got 1/4 cc bo-se. On Oct. 15, gave each 3 cc covexin (thought the 5cc dose was a 3-poor light in barn) and started the 5 day regimin of 40%dimethoxy for coccidia prevention. About a week ago, I started mom and babies on PAYBACK boer goat developer r20 medicated (babies for growth, mom as she was thinning out due to lots of nursing). They also get alfalfa hay 1 flake twice a day. Well, in the past week, my biggest buckling has been kind of ooky. Last week he seemed kind of lethargic for a day but pulled out of it. Then yesterday I noticed he seemed sick.He is urinating normally but yesterday he really seemed to have a tummy ache. He wants to nurse constantly but doesn't really want to eat hay. He kind of lips the pellets but is not aggressively eating (he was two days ago). He is not coughing, his temp is 102.9 and there are reasonably normal breath sounds for a kid who is hollering as stethoscope is applied. His eyelid membranes are very pink, his mouth a little less. He weighs 40 lbs. and is 8 weeks old. Worries: gets down then up a lot, kind of weak on back legs? Seem stiff (but then I noticed buck kids tend to walk a little like that? kind of stalking thing). At 4 o'clock yesterday I gave him:
1 1/2 cc penicillin IM in case of pneumonia
5 cc c-d antitoxin (recommended as additional therapy even if pneumonia and a definite if its an enterotoxemia thing)
probiotic paste
baking soda in water drenched-about 30 cc for possible floppy kid
I have NOT noticed him making any pellets...there is definitely no diarrhea. Anyone seen anything like this?

I'm not going to try to act like a expert here but sound like either Thiamine deficiency or maybe Selenium Deficiency. If it is Thiamine Deficiency you need to start giving the goat Vitamin B Complex alone with either Goat Nutri-Drench or Power Punch High for goats. You do not want them to get down on you. I had a goat a while back had signs of Thiamine Deficiency and gave him first shot was 2 cc of Vitamin B Complex and then started giving him Goats Prefer Power Punch 3 times a day for 2 weeks because he was getting weak in legs having trouble walking and for 2 days he was where he couldn't hardly get up at all. After I started him on that he started doing better. Also he ate great and drank water great but just had a hard time getting up. If want to read on the Selenium Deficiency I have been battleing with go to my topic and you will see also where I have photos of what my little Emily looked like with the Selenium Deficiency. She was weak in hind quaters where she couldn't hardly get up or at times couldn't.

Good Luck on your little goat.

I do not know if your giving loose goat minerals but all goats need that no matter where you live.

[Jcran]

Thanks for the advice; of course it's Sunday. Just got off the phone with the vet and he's going to try to get someone to go by the office and meet me there to give me thiamine and banamine. I am thinking that yes, the 40% dimethoxy coccidia treatment might have been the sulfer culprit. I googled goat polio and an article on goatweb mentioned that too much sulfur might also kill off the flora and throw a goat into the polio thing. Wish me luck! BTW, on the selenium deficiency...we talked about that as well, and he said that with the doses I gave prenatally and on 1st day of life, that would be far less likely. Thanks for the info though!

[AllWolf]

Isn't that when the crap hits the roof on animals getting sick. Always remember also do not over dose a goat because it can also cause Thiamine deficiency. After you get done treating your goats and are better make sure you give them some Probios to repopulate gut with live bacteria. Some people use yogurt but me I don't I always use Probios Powder..

Forgot to say if you have a feed store open today you can get the Vitamin B Complex at a feed store. That is where I get mine but the other you said a VET has to give that you to.

Good Luck and keep us posted on how the goat is doing.

[sixstrothers]

Could this be something as simple as constipation? You said you have not seen pelets? I have had them do this and I use warm water enema's and they are usually better after passing berries.
Lori

[DocM]

Most B complex inject is not strong enough. To combat polio, you need to administer 100 mg of B1 per 10 kg of body weight. Most B complex contain only 12.5 mL of B1 per mg of solution and so for a 60 lb goat you'd need to administer 21 cc's of B complex. I only use the b complex in desperation, but I buy the kind that is 100 mL per mg of solution - that way I can dose 1 CC per 10 KG (22 pounds). Also, it's not effective sub q, it should be IM, and preferably the first dose should be IV.

[PygmyLover]

If you can't get the injection just give him B1 vitamines for now. The B complex doesn't have enought thiamine in it.

Crush a few of them up and desolve in water and give by syringe (no needle).

[Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians]

You have some stuff very confused...

First you have to give the whole 5cc of covexin 8 if you are going to choose to use it.
Sulfur is NOT sulfa, sulfamethazine or any of the other hundreds of sulfa's are medications that treat bacterial infections, bacterial pnemonia and cocci...sulfur is a mineral, and yes to much of it is bad. Using your sulfa for cocci prevention did not cause polio in your goats.

1 and 1/2 cc of pennicillin is only enough for a 25 pound goat. You don't use antibiotics unless you have a problem, rattled breathing? Snotty nose with Fever? Using drugs like this is the reason why pennicllin won't work in most herds. Pennicillin is not the best choice of drug if symptoms become a problem.

When you started them on the meat goat pellet, did they over eat? All the symptoms you are talking about sound stomach related, he is walking stiff legged because his belly hurts, is he grinding his teeth when he is laying down? Is he pooping? Is he ruminanting? Is his tummy hard? He may be impacted. Is he peeing freely and well?

1/4cc of Bo-se given at birth is a very minimal amount, certainly would not counteract selenium defficency if you have it in your area...do you? But no it does not sound like you have white muscle disease.

Yes, do always give Fortified B complex or thiamin when a goat is feeling punky, it certainly won't hurt anything.

Always take a temp, low or high is when you need to react.

Figure out your vaccination program, and add grain very slowly, because if he has not had his second vaccination 21 days from the firstshot, entero is quite likely in the largest grain fed kids, they tank up on milk, tank of on hay, tank up on grain, you likely don't use a white wormer, so all the tape larve kids have during the late summer, along with the bloated tummy, causes the very normal enterotoxemia toxin, found in every goat, to quickly multiply and kill the goat from stress in the abdomen and gut. Vaccination of course and adding new feed stuff slowly is the only thing you can do to help.

And if you suspect entero, alot more to do than just give antitoxin to help him through it, and rebuild the rumen flora which you have killed, so he can eat normally. Vicki

[Jcran]

Thanks for the info; yep I know its 5 cc covexin but must have just had my head in the clouds as I wrote 3 cc in the records and can't remember if I gave 5 or 3 so am noting that on my records I wrote 3...no diarrhea...yes, passed lots of pellets yesterday. Urinating normally also.Absolutely normal looking. Normal temp too. He seems to be slightly better after the thiamin shots. I have NO idea what strength they were as the vet just pulled up 3 shots for me. Each was 2 1/2 cc. I also got two shots of banamine. Each one 1/2 cc I gave a shot of thiamin yesterday afternoon, last night and this morning. Banamine yesterday and this morning. I specifically asked the vet how much penicillin and he said 33 cc per 100 lb. At 40 pounds, that came out to 1 1/2 cc. Now my questions: How long do I continue thiamin therapy? What about penicillin? I thought I remembered 5 days for both?

And yep, I started pellets slowly; they were only getting a minimal amount anyway when the symptoms started-about 1/4 to 1/2 cup each with mom hogging some of it.

[PygmyLover]

5 days for penicillian not sure about the thiamin though

[fishhead]

My vet told me 5 days minimum on the Pen G AND at least 1 day after the symptoms disappear. If all is normal on day 3 still continue the 5 days. If it isn't normal until 7 days of shots give an 8th shot

[AllWolf]

It depends on how bad they are for them to have the V-B SHots. I gave mine 3 days of shots but of course I was giving my guy some other stuff also that had the V-B in it. The goat power punch I done for 2 weeks which he got 3 times a day for one week and then the next week he got 2 times a day. OH what I talking about that is a goat power punch that they drink. So far knock on wood haven't gave not other type of shots other than like my gal had to have Bo-Se shots. The other goat got V-B shots.

The goat power punch that I was giving has thiamin alone with all other types of stuff. That is why I didn't give shots more than 3 days.

Good Luck with your goat.. Hope it gets doing a lot better soon...

Good Day Everyone time to go and carve a punkins for tonight and have for tomorrow..

Happy Halloween... BOO!!!

[Jcran]

I'm glad to say my buckling is more perky today; vet said 2cc of thiamin for the next five days. I am also giving probiotics every day and 1 1/2 cc penicillin until tomorrow (that will make 5 days total penicillin). Today he is still a little humped up and "slow" but he was actually playing with his brother and eating. Chewing cud when I checked him at 6:30 a.m. I am now feeling some hope. And ain't hope a great feeling! Thanks for everyone's help.

[PygmyLover]

well that is wonderful!