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  #1  
Old 10/07/06, 06:12 PM
Jhn Boy ina D Trump world
 
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I'm at Wits End with SCOURING GOAT HELP!!!!!!!

A couple of days I got home from work and noticed that the backside of my Alpine Nubian cross looked a little dirty, but I didn't think much about it. The next day when I got home I could tell there was something wrong with her. She would just stand in one place and not move alot. She was not eating much at all and had been scouring pretty significantly. She's on graze and Lespideeza (SP) hay. I have fed no grain to her in the last several weeks. She's not in milk nor is she bred. I gave her a dose of Probiotics, but it did not help. On Friday I came home at lunch and dosed her again, and I put her in a stall of the barn away from the others. I've had a friend who is a goat guru come look at her today, and she said she sees nothing wrong with her other than the scouring. I don't know what could have caused it. I have been giving her Probiotics and V&E for goats. She seems to be feeling maybe a tad better, but still scouring. I was so at wits end that I gave her an Immodium AD; I hope I haven't killed her. PLEASE!!!! reply with your thoughts..... she's the sweetest one I've got and I sure would hate to lose her.

Thanks in advance.

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  #2  
Old 10/07/06, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by TSYORK
A couple of days I got home from work and noticed that the backside of my Alpine Nubian cross looked a little dirty, but I didn't think much about it. The next day when I got home I could tell there was something wrong with her. She would just stand in one place and not move alot. She was not eating much at all and had been scouring pretty significantly. She's on graze and Lespideeza (SP) hay. I have fed no grain to her in the last several weeks. She's not in milk nor is she bred. I gave her a dose of Probiotics, but it did not help. On Friday I came home at lunch and dosed her again, and I put her in a stall of the barn away from the others. I've had a friend who is a goat guru come look at her today, and she said she sees nothing wrong with her other than the scouring. I don't know what could have caused it. I have been giving her Probiotics and V&E for goats. She seems to be feeling maybe a tad better, but still scouring. I was so at wits end that I gave her an Immodium AD; I hope I haven't killed her. PLEASE!!!! reply with your thoughts..... she's the sweetest one I've got and I sure would hate to lose her.

Thanks in advance.
Well first off I sure hope you didn't kill your goat because when they get the scours or what I call it sometimes is the runs Never use Imodium AD' to control diarrhea in a goat.. It can kill a goat .. Check see if the goats scours smells awful is so she has Cocci also known as Coccidia. You will need to treat the goat for Cocci with ither Di-Methox Injection 40% or -Albon. Which IMO Albon is the same as Di-Methox Injection 40%...

Next thing have your wormed the goat? If you haven't you need to worm your goat because worms also can cause the scours at times but Please never give a goat Imodium AD.. This is why---->>>If you give goat Imodium AD this product can stop the peristaltic action of the gut, bringing the digestive process to a halt, and death is not uncommon under such circumstances. If you have on hand when your goat gets the scours use Pepto-Bismol, Kaeopectate, or Scour Halt but the very best thing to do first is find out why your goat is doing this.
Did you change the goats feeding habits? If so it will cause this.
Does the goat have worms?
There are many reason why goats can get the scours so first try to see what is causing it but most the time it is ither worms or Cocci.. If your goat is a Adult goat lots of times it mostly worms but sometimes they do get the Cocci and have to be treated for it..

Is your goat is dehydrated? If you think your goat is dehydrated do this---->> Check the goat for dehydration. Pinch the skin; if it snaps back into place, the goat is not seriously dehydrated. If the skin stays 'tented' like beaten egg whites, the goat is seriously dehydrated. Mix electrolytes and get them down your goat fast because when a goat gets dehydrated and you do not treat them for that you can lose them..
Also check your goat for worms by doing this ----->>> Check anemia in your goat pull the lower eyelid down and see if it is red, pink, pale pink or white. If they are pale pink or white that tells you have a bad anemia goat. You can also check the goats gum to see if they are anemia also. Most the time through the gums will not tell the complete truth so that is why you go by the eyelids instead.


When a goat is standing off from the others there is something wrong with them. They are sick and need something done.

I wish you luck and just giving you what I do when my goats starts showing signs of being sick..

Sorry for posting all of this but was trying to help. Yes we have to ask all types of questions to see what is causing this and may can help you. I'm not a expert but I try to help out if can and also others will too.

Good Luck on your goat and hope it gets well soon.
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  #3  
Old 10/07/06, 07:52 PM
Jhn Boy ina D Trump world
 
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Would Corid work? I have that on hand. By her eyelids she's not anemic. I only gave one pill of Immoidum, would that be enough to cause death?

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  #4  
Old 10/07/06, 08:05 PM
 
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I know very little about goats so take it for what it's worth but I'm wondering if some activated charcoal might help neutralize the Immodium AD if it hasn't been too long since it was given.

Here's a site with some info you might want to look at.

http://fiascofarm.com/goats/index.htm

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  #5  
Old 10/07/06, 08:50 PM
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How is your goat doing? As far as the Imodium I don't know, but I think you'll be ok. We go by the theory anything we can give our children we can give our goats. We have cattle so normaly use what whatever is is the farm fridge Biosol, Kaeopectate, ivomec, lifeline. I would start with the corrid since you have it on hand. The only question I have is what wormer are you using, and how long have you been using that kind? I will be checking this post because I'm curious about how she does with the Imodium. If it had been in our cabnet I would have tried it too. Good Luck & God Bless

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  #6  
Old 10/07/06, 09:54 PM
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She's still hanging on, and I dosed her pretty hard with the Corid. I also gaver her V&E. I can't remember the name of the Wormer; it's probably been two months since I treated. The wormer was in medicated pellets that you mix in with feed that I purchased at TSC. Her eyelids look fine, but she's not eating and she still has the scours; it doesn't look to be letting up any.

She closes her eyes really hard like she's squinting then she'll reopen; she does this every few minutes. Is this a sign of pain. If you think it's pain, could she be does with Childrens Tylenol?

I'll keep yall posted, and thanks for all your help.

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  #7  
Old 10/07/06, 10:48 PM
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Did you check the pasture for mushrooms? Recently we had to have one of our does put down because of mushroom injection. She had some of the same symptoms but didn't respond to anything and eventually got fluid in her lungs. It was awful.

My usual remedy/first aid for scours is a mixture of goat drench, active culture yogurt, honey, and vanilla (for flavor ok the goat drench is pretty vile). Dose the critter with it every four hours until it feels better. You can add pepto if you want. I'm not sure why this works, but I get good results with it.

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  #8  
Old 10/07/06, 10:52 PM
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It's possible that your wormer doesn't work in your area any more. Get some ivermectin and give her 1cc per 33 lbs. Also get some di-methox or albon, and give her some of that.Get some Kaolin pectate (pink, looks like pepto bismol, but for goats/livestock) Keep up the probiotics. this is very important. Add some vitamins and electrolytes to thier water, and keep trying to get her to eat hay, maybe even a little grain for energy, though goat nutri-drench would be preffered. I usually give some vitamin B complex shots when a goat is even acting a little bit 'off' just because it can't hurt, and it's cheap.
Hope this helps!

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  #9  
Old 10/07/06, 11:02 PM
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Okay check her gums instead of the eyelids. white gums indicate anemia.
Giving the Safeguard wormer in when feeding is a hit or miss kind of worming as some will eat more and some will get less of it. Try a wormer that you can tell how much the goat is getting. I like to use the paste wormers.
Check the hay for mold as moldy hay will cuase enterotoximia and will kill your goat. Do not give Immodium to any animal it is not good for them. Give Pepto.
Take a stool sample to your vet and have it analyzed, so you have an idea what you need to do next.

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  #10  
Old 10/07/06, 11:22 PM
 
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This is what worked for us. Metamucil [sp]. Friends who raise deer told us about it. Our guys had a bad case when they turned over the corn barrel and stuffed themselfs. One dose and they were back to normal the next day. Hope this helps. [Sam] Tamsam

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  #11  
Old 10/07/06, 11:26 PM
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It sounds like acidosis to me. I would be reluctant to try more things on top of what you have tried, but if it is acidosis, you can try pen g orally first. Sulfa drug is also effective. According to "Managing Your Ewe" (a great book, even for goat owners), there is a much more involved course of treatment, but I am reluctant to suggest it after everything else that has been tried. Is she bloated? You might try treating for that first with baking soda, oil, etc. Those seem a little more benign than some of the other harsher drugs.

Just a thought.

T

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  #12  
Old 10/07/06, 11:31 PM
 
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I got something called Diarsanyl from my vet. Some feed stores also carry it. I give it, along with oral liquid sulfa for scours. You might also want to steal a pinch of cud from one of your other goats and give it to her to get her rumen working properly. If she's dehydrated, your vet might be able to help her by administering ringer's lactate.

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  #13  
Old 10/07/06, 11:55 PM
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Sorry I have never used Corid on my goats. I was doing some research just now and this one place lots of people go to and read on help they said they don't use Corid no more because of this---->> I do not recommend using Corid, as I have not found it to be anywhere near as effective as Albon or Sulmet. That is from fiascofarm site.

Now on the wormer. I use to worm my goats with is either Ivomec or Valbazen. Only time I use a safe guard paste wormer is for my baby goats. Then later they are put on Ivomec.. The wormer your using may not be working. Sometimes goats get where you have to change wormers because the other ones stop working.

I agree with alot of others also on this subject. Check the hay to see if not bad. On the Imodium AD if the goat is still here your going to be ok more likely but you have to wait 24 hours to see if your goat is going to live from the Imodium AD. If your goat does on that part you was lucky. Just never again give any goats that type of med. You can give them Pepto-Bismol,Kaeopectate, or Scour Halt for the scours.

If your goat is in pain you can give Bayer Children’s Chewable aspirins give it every 8 hrs for 24 hrs and that is it. That can be given for pain and fever.

If you think your goat has been poisoned you can use ToxiBan to help save them also. If do not have them make sure you put that on your list to have. If you do not have that on hand and you think your goat has been poisoned use raw eggs sometimes that works too.

Do you have any pokeweed that has them little purple berries on it. If so that can make a goat very sick too. The signs of being poisoned by pokeweed is these---->> CLASS OF SIGNS: Gastrointestinal irritation (colic, diarrhea which may be bloody). Rarely: anemia, possibly death. Birth defects and tumors may also be possible..

Photo of pokeweed berries. Pokeweed

I was rereading this also and you said this--->>> She's on graze and Lespideeza (SP) hay. I have fed no grain to her in the last several weeks.

Just a question why did you take her off grain? Your goat needs to have grain, hay, fresh water all the time. I have never taken a doe off grain at all. I'm not to trying to sound like a smart butt but you need to slowly put your goat back on grain alone with all she already being eatting because changing the feed like that can also cause problems. Maybe reason to your goat got sick is this---->> Where your goat hasn't been feed grain the goat probabley got hungry & could have ate some type of poison plants because of not getting grain feed now. When they don't get feed grain they will get hungry and look for other things to eat. Also make sure the goat or goats get plenty of goats mineral that is also very important too.

I wish you all the luck with your goat.. I sure hope your goat gets well soon. Hang in there.

Keep us posted

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Last edited by AllWolf; 10/08/06 at 12:39 AM. Reason: forgot to add something
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  #14  
Old 10/08/06, 08:20 AM
Jhn Boy ina D Trump world
 
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Well she's still haning on, but still scouring. I tried to give her some grain this morning, and she turned her nose up at it. I think though I've dosed her with so much that she hates to see me coming, but she's not eating well at all. One puzzling thing though, her weight doesn't seem to be falling off whatsoever. A stool sample goes to the state lab tomorrow; it's near my wife's work and they same same day turnaround. I'll keep yall posted. Thanks so much for all your advice and concern.

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  #15  
Old 10/08/06, 08:32 AM
 
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My vet said to give my goat 5 - 325 mg asprins twice a day to my 80 wether for fever. She said that was the low end of the range and could be doubled.

I would make sure she has access to baking soda at all times. Now is especially important. It buffers the pH of the rumen and keeps the bacteria that keeps your goat alive happy.

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Old 10/08/06, 08:38 AM
 
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If it were my goat...on a piece of bread

I'd worm her w/ horse paste Ivermectin at twice her wt--maybe 2.5(repeat in 10 days)
I'd give her pig paste w/ probiotics for blood building
I'd give her some b-complex to get her appetite going
I'd make a ball of baking soda and molasses and feed it to her(force it down if needed )
Offer her water with molasses and cider vinegar mixed in

Make sure she has some free chice, loose minerals available. Keep her up and moving---don't let her be down for long periods...

Call the vet if you feel unsure....but I've found that the folks here know more than typical bovine or horse vet

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  #17  
Old 10/08/06, 08:40 AM
 
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TSYORKm I suggest you pm Vicki McGaugh TX Nubians, she will probably send you her phone number and give you excellent guidance. Not putting down anyone's advive here by saying that. I just found her help to be invaluable, and probably saved my goats' lives by informing me about milk replacers.

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  #18  
Old 10/11/06, 05:28 PM
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Thanks to everyone for their concern, advise, etc. I'm happy to say that my "Bambi" is doing much much much better. I wormed her hard yesterday with Iveron and she's been getting Corid. She's eat more today that she has in the past week put together about it.

Again thanks so much, you all are a wealth of information.

Shannon

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  #19  
Old 10/11/06, 05:38 PM
 
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has anyone ever tried blackberry leaves for scouring? I am drying some for the winter just in case...
Marci in Nor California

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Old 10/11/06, 07:25 PM
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I'm glad to hear Bambi is doing better. Don't forget to reworm in seven days. You may also want to reworm your herd.

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  #21  
Old 10/12/06, 07:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marcir
has anyone ever tried blackberry leaves for scouring? I am drying some for the winter just in case...
Marci in Nor California
I don't know about using them to treat scours but at times my boys acted like they were candy and devoured them.

Glad to hear Bambi is doing better.
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  #22  
Old 10/12/06, 08:40 PM
Jhn Boy ina D Trump world
 
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I guess I spoke too soon

Thanks for everyone's concern. Bambi was eating like a horse and acted like she felt so much better, but tonight she took a turn for the worse, and died in my arms at about 8:30.

I'm saddend, but it could have been worse, It could have been a child..... I'll just have to find one as sweet as she was.

Thanks again.

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  #23  
Old 10/12/06, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSYORK
Thanks for everyone's concern. Bambi was eating like a horse and acted like she felt so much better, but tonight she took a turn for the worse, and died in my arms at about 8:30.

I'm saddend, but it could have been worse, It could have been a child..... I'll just have to find one as sweet as she was.

Thanks again.
I am so sorry.....
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  #24  
Old 10/12/06, 09:23 PM
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I just wanted to say something about this. First off, to quote Allwolf, I'm not trying to be a smart butt.
Taking a healthy goat OFF grain, will not make her sick. As long as she has plenty of browse or hay, she will be perfectly fine. A change from one feed to another can make them sick, yes. Which is why all changes should be made gradually. A goat does not need grain their entire life. Many very healthy goats live long lives and never see grain at all. In my opinion, a milking goat or a pregnant goat in the last part of pregnancy should be getting *some* grain, but a dry doe or a doe in the earlier stages of pregnancy will be just fine on a good hay and/or browse. My dry does do not get grain, just fresh water, good hay and fresh loose mineral. I slowly put them back on grain as they near their due date. They don't go looking for other things because they miss their grain. They just munch on hay all day long.
And you should never try to get a sick or "off" doe to eat grain. If they are not functioning well in all aspects, the last thing they need to be trying to digest is a rich grain. Fresh leaves or good hay is perfect for a sick goat.
And again, not trying to start an argument or anything like that........

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Old 10/13/06, 04:28 AM
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Exclamation

OJ are you saying my statement is fault or what?

Are you referring I gave bad advice on topic?

I feel like now it my fault the goat died. So now I sitting here typing all this out to prove my point on why I said on the grain..

I'm only asking because of way it sounds that I done wrong by stating a goat should never be taken off grain. Why I stated that is because all my does is for milking but 2 is not for milking and why I will not take my other does off grain is because I do not want to risk the danger of killing them. To fast of food change will cause problems and I can not and will not take my goats off grain. Goats are like me and you they need grain and other food to stay healthy. Here is what goats need to stay healthy. Protein, water, minerals, green pasture and grain with all types of stuff in it to remain healthy and have a shiny coat.

Can we humans go with out meat? NO because it not healthy for us so goats need grain to keep up their health and energy or making milk and producing healthy babies. The only goats I know of that is never on grain is bucks or wethers because of UC. Lots of others may not have goats on grain but I have done my research and it also states it not good for a goat to be off grain because if you have a milking doe or a doe going to be a milking doe or be bred it needs to have grain all the time alone with other types of feed. I'm saying your goats aren't healthy but lots of goats do better on grain and will hold their weigh for breeding or to get ready to have milk and have healthy kids. Grain is a source of food to help maintain a healthy weigh but do not over feed a goat on grain because it can cause acid rumen and that can kill the normal bacteria which helps digest the food. That is why lots of goat owners use Probios to help keep living bacteria in a goat rumen.

My animals get plenty to eat but I even ask a buddy of mine about taking a goat off grain and he said it's not good for them because they will want to eat other plants not good for them no matter having hay and other stuff. I'm not risking taking a chance on taking my goats off grain due to the fact of troubles. Heck you may not run into that trouble. I have also known of many goat owners shooting up their meat goats with all types of drugs to get the meat on them so can sell them. My goats I have are not for meat so I do what has worked for me. I'm not trying to start a fight but I was just posting of what I think is right and when I had a goat down I still gave grain, hay, fresh water and all the meds it needed and it came out of it because of TLC. When a goat is sick give them fresh leaves because they will eat them way before grain and later when get feeling better they will go and eat grain but make sure the grain isn't moldy.

But I have never taken a goat off grain and all my goats are healthy. Even before I posted on this topic at being I got advice from a friend of mine and he said it was good advice to.. He lives just 10mins away from me and he said never taken a goat off grain because of reasons that I stated or if change them off grain to fast it will make them sick or kill them. If I thought what I posted was wrong I would not had posted it. I like to see all goats to be healthy and not sick. I know of a certain drugs that will kill a goat and I will never give it to them ever. It might work for certain people but I'm not putting my goats in danger of a certain drug that will kill them instead of help them or use a certain thing that has been found out it working on goats now.

I did not tell this person to throw their goat back on grain fast just very slowing because if throw them on grain in a 1sec flat bass you will kill them because they will eat and eat until bloat or another thing goes wrong. So if a goat get sick from eating grain it due to other issues of what I know. To the one that lost your goat. I'm sorry to hear yours passed away and I didn't mean for you to think to put your goat on grain in 1sec flat just very slowing giving grain again. I have also read not to use Corid on goats because it not helping them no more on fighting cocci. This is from Fias Co Farm on what they say about Corid-- >>> They do not recommend using Corid, as they have not found it to be anywhere near as effective as Albon or Sulmet.

Cocci is a fast killer so if the goat had cocci Corid was not doing it job like suppose to be. If you put the goat back on a lot of grain that maybe what killed it. I do not want to feel like it my fault so I’m taking time to type all this out and letting everyone know I feel like I getting acused of the goat dying is my fault. If what I posted on grain wasn’t true I would not had gotten advice from a buddy of mine that has had goats over 15 years. He would not had told me wrong.

Why I also said to keep a goat on grain is because of this. Many goats will need grain and supplements to make milk and maintain average body condition. Some goats do well on just good hay, browse and pasture but most do not.

Hay and pasture may vary considerably in quality and nutrient value. Of particular concern is the extreme variation that occurs in key nutrients such as protein, fiber and energy needed to promote growth and good milk production that is why grain is so important to. Why grain is so important is because of nutrient quality in hay can also vary. If forage and browse are not available, such as in winter or during severe drought, supplemental feed is required. This is usually given in the form of hay and grain. Fresh water and a loose mineral supplement should be available at all times. Take for instance it getting winter time a goat needs grain to keep warm and strength up to fight the winter weather. Protein and other things in feed are very important. Yes Hay is very important and so is other minerals and grain. Unfortunately many goats, especially does, are unable to get enough nutrients from browse or hay alone to meet their needs so that is why you need grain added to their diet..

To me not giving female goats grain is like putting a hen up in a cage with no hay to lay her eggs. Grain to me is very important basics for goats.

If I said some stuff twice I’m trying to get my point over to make people understand how I feel that the goat died and I feel I’m being accused of it. If I missed understood forgive me on this but I put it as I feel.

Now that is all I'm saying.
Just hope now I didn't make anyone mad but just wanted to make it clear or what I meant on the grain.

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  #26  
Old 10/13/06, 06:44 AM
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Allwolf, nowhere did I say that you killed the goat...sheeeesh......TSYork never even said that he put her back on grain, I don't know if he did or not. That was not my point. Many times a sick goat will suddenly act better right before the final downhill slide to death and that is probably what happened with this doe. The only one who can make you feel guilty is you, so just don't!
I guess that yes, I was saying your statement that taking goats off grain will make them sick, was faulty. Because it will not hurt a goat to go without grain if she is dry and her nutritional needs are being met elsewhere. I didn't leave your statement standing because I didn't want new goat folks getting the idea that grain is *essential* for a live goat. Everyone does things differently.
The line at the end of my post was for the beneft of those who don't know not to tempt a sick goat with grain. I hope I may have helped somebody there. It was not aimed at you.
You want to feed your does grain at all times, thats fine. But I wanted to clear it up and be sure that people know that to not feed a dry doe grain is also *fine*.
I'm not going to go through your post and answer everything. Thanks for taking the time to write it. I stand by my post. Taking a healthy goat off grain and meeting her nutritional needs with hay/browse/ mineral, etc, she will be fine.

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Old 10/13/06, 06:50 AM
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Location: Maryland
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TSYORK, so sorry for your loss. I loss a kid to cocci this week. I had been treating with sulmet and thought he was doing better. Sunday night he started acting not well again, and monday morning he went down hill real fast. I rushed him to the vet but it was too late. My other little guy also had cocci. They gave me some paste called Marquis to give him, said it does a great job of getting rid of cocci. Its amazing how fast you can lose one.

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  #28  
Old 10/13/06, 07:24 AM
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Indiana
Posts: 360

Does anyone have an opinion on whether c&d antitoxin would of made a difference in this case? I'm asking because i battled w/a young doe myself for 5 days-finally got advice about the antitoxin--wouldn't you know--our vet doesn't keep any handy!!! I had to order it--she seemed better that morning-FINALLY got it delivered around noon--went to administer it and found her fresh dead!! (5 days total from "not acting right" too dead!)..and was caught up on her cd&t.

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  #29  
Old 10/13/06, 08:04 AM
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,259

ITA with you Emily. Actually, if a goat is scouring, the usual recommendation is to STOP giving them grain. Give them only high quality hay until they're feeling better. Digesting grain is very hard work for a goat. It's not their natural food. Their natural food is browse, grass, leaves, etc. Grain is something that has been introduced by humans to animals to make them grow bigger, produce more milk, etc. It's hard on their rumens to digest it. If their rumens are healthy, they can handle it. But when they're sick, it just adds to the stress on their body. So yes, I think telling someone to give a sick goat grain, especially when they hadn't been eating them before, is bad advice. It can very easily cause bloat, because their rumen is probably already not working well, and then adding the stress of a new food, and it being grain, is a very bad combination.

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  #30  
Old 10/13/06, 08:06 AM
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Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 1,003

First off..I'm sure sorry that you lost your goat. And I do hope you will find one that you fall in love with too.

Man..there's a pile of stuff that can cause the runs. And not being there..seeing the hay, browze, weeds, etc...it's tough for anyone to actually know what your goats health problem was. All we can do from our computers is guess and go from there.

I do sometimes have concerns..especially with new goat owners..that too many things are given out to try and if too many things are tried..it does not help the animal. Especially if the animal is being treated for things that aren't wrong with it.

We all have our "ways" and things we do for our herds. MOST of what I do here..is not acceptable to the rest of the board. BUT .. it has worked here for several years..when that ceases to be the case...I will change what I am doing. So no one method is right or wrong usuallly. Just different ways of getting to the same end.

I don't think OJ was saying that you killed the goat. I don't believe that you killed the goat. I do ..however..raise my goats differently than you. I grain pregnant does after they kid. I grain milking does while they are on the stand. I grain a chosen few of the kids IF I am wanting to hit a certain date to breed and don't think they will make it without. In other words...I don't grain much at all. My goats are healthy. If they weren't .. you would have heard about it on this board....and rightfully so.

Giving advice on the board is like taking a shot in the dark. You can't see the animal..you don't know the animal..you don't know the situation and set up. Taking advice on the board...that is totally the responsibility of whoever is asking for the help. You have the choice to accept advice or not. You also have the choice of using your internet for info and you have the choice of picking up the phone and talking to a vet in your area.

And lastly...sometimes things just happen. If you are responsible for ANY living being...you will at one time or another have one that dies. Its all part of it. Not easy...but a part of it.

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