new LGD puppy

T Lynn · #1 04/10/06, 09:07 AM

Well, I got a new LGD puppy. She is a 8 week old 3/4 great pyrenees 1/4 anatolian female. So, now I need advise on how to get her off to a good start. I tried putting her in with my does last pm, but she squeezed through the fence. So, now I have her in a smaller pen area inside the doe area. Of course this means that she is by her self, but she is were they sleep, eat, and close to the water. My girls are not use to the dog either. So, I read that it is best to put her with an adult, but another article said put a kid the same age in with her. So, what is best? How have y'all trained a puppy if you do not have an older dog to teach it. I really want this puppy to become a good protector for my goats. So all advise is welcomed.

Loda Farm · #2 04/10/06, 12:31 PM

I have never started with a young pup, but I did adopt a 7 month old Pyr pup that was a house dog. I put her in a 10x10 dog kennel near the goat pen. After a few days of smelling and learning each other, I then moved her into the goat pen on a chain. I put a dog house next to her so she could get out of the elements. I put her on a chain, so that that goats could get away from her if they felt afraid. After 2-3 days, I looked out, and there Teeka(LGD) and Manna(fainter doe) were laying next to each other sleeping. LOL Manna is my dominant female, so once she accepted Teeka, they all did. After that, I went out let Teeka off her chain, and they have been together ever since.

With a pup, the big issue you need to worry about is the goats hurting the pup, not the pup hurting the goats. Start off with a kid in with the pup. One that could defend itself if the pup got too rambunctious, but not big enough to hurt the pup. I would also bring out the pup with the older goats while you supervised. My goats adjusted to the dog rather quickly. They will actually seek her out if they are feeling uneasy about something.

Laura

TexCountryWoman · #3 04/10/06, 12:37 PM

I have two Great Pyrenees 2 yrs old. We could not keep them in the goat area for training when they were pups because they dug out and would come back to the house. This was largely in part to my husbands continual petting of the dogs. Despite my protests, he kept treating them like regular pups. Don't pet this dog of yours! Keep it where you have it, in the adjoining pen to your goats. Let the goats get used to it through the fence and the puppy get used to the goats. The dog will be lonely for company and the goats will be the only source of security and companionship. Just as a lab can't help but retrieve, or a hound can't help but sniff, a LGD can't help but bond with stock. If you allow the dog to bond with you before it bonds with the goats, it will often make it harder on the whole process. Don't worry about putting a goat in the pen with the dog right this very minute. You will know in your gut when the time is right for what ever works for you.
Don't turn your pup into a frontporch dog. Let it feel a bit abandoned by you so it only has the goats for friends. It will then feel like it is part of that social group. You will still be the master as you provide the food. You should remain the alpha. Don't try to teach tricks, no shaking hands or things of that nature. These dogs are not obedience dogs. They will never be like a german Shepherd or a Terrier as far as obidience goes so don't scold for that. They have their own set of rules. If they know their name, that's great. Work on come here and "no" and just basics down the road.

Hope this helps.

TexCountryWoman · #4 04/10/06, 12:41 PM

I want to clear something up. I didn't mean to say don't EVER pet the pup, I meant don't lavish affection on the pup like you would a regulat pup, all the time. Let the pup crave a bit of affection from the goats.

dezeeuwgoats · #5 04/10/06, 01:41 PM

My anatolian male is two years, two months old now. We made a bunch of mistakes - and he is turning out in spite of us, I think! We did have to work closely with a breeder for the alpha/ loving dominance thing. Not sure if that is an issue with pyr.- or even as much just with females. ALL of his unnacceptable behaviors improved once we had established alpha. Because he listened to us. Just doing belly rolls is not enough to establish alpha.

I would hesitate to leave a pup that young, unnattended with goats. The pen within a pen is good for now. Only let her loose with them while you are around to correct and extinquish any unacceptable behavior. I have just two acres - so my goats are penned - and the dog has free run inside perimeter fencing. He only goes into a pen to protect - or if I let him in through a gate. He doesn't chase any escapees either.

I both agree/disagree with the obedience bit. I think it is very important to have a dog that is leash trained, able to be put in a kennel, and know basic commands. Of course, it only took ONE lesson for the sit/stay/down thing! These dogs are bright and may not do things over and over for you - they'll think you're nuts if you ask them to. They never seem to FORGET, either.

The breeder I worked with told me that the top two reasons people have been bit by their anatolians were: they tried to grab their collars when their dog was actively guarding (during a 'situation'), and trying to shove them into a kennel. The two things we had to work really hard on were food aggression, and desensitizing him to the whole neck/collar issue. EVERYONE in my family, including my five year old can take food away from him and my husband (alpha) can grab him by the collar no problem. I just don't have the guts, but I can lead him by the collar.

Good luck with your new puppy!
niki

midkiffsjoy · #6 04/11/06, 12:14 AM

I have to ask what a "belly roll" is.

um...so...What's a belly roll????

Thanks.

TexCountryWoman · #7 04/11/06, 04:34 PM

I believe the belly roll is akin to the "take down". To show the dog that the human is the alpha,the dog is taken down and turned over and shown who is boss so to speak. You see it naturally in pack behavior with dogs and wolves. The alpha should be able to illicit the belly roll without a take down in a properly trained dog when the situation warrants. if the so called master is afraid of the dog, the dog is the alpha. Not good.

After much investigation on the internet, i chose pyrenees over Anatolians because pyrenees are supposed to be less aggressive. I am glad i did. i have come across several people who have to tie their anatolians up or get rid of them because of agression problems. Our pyrenees have never growled or bitten or done anything like that except when our female had pups and one was born dead. this upset her very much and she was growly around her litter for several days...she is now fine with us playing with her pups.

I really do believe pyrs are much less agressive with livestock too from things i have witnessed first hand. i have seen anatolians chase chickens and grabbed cows by the tail, things my pyrs don't do. sorry anatolian folks, just staing things i have seen. I am sure there are bad pyrs as well

Goat Freak · #8 04/12/06, 12:20 PM

CONGRATS on the new puppy! I heard that they should be put in with goats that are big enough to "handle" the puppy, but small enough to not injure it. Good Luck with the training. See ya, bye.

dezeeuwgoats · #9 04/12/06, 02:15 PM

A 'belly roll' is when your puppy rolls over on its back - a sign of submission. A dog/pup does this because they 'love' you, and you are in 'loving dominance' over them. I've never heard of someone forcing a belly roll on an older dog - I suspect you could run into some serious problems if you tried to force an adult anatolian whom you weren't alpha to. Our dog is over two and still voluntarily rolls over for us when we love on him - to each of our five family members. He also does it when he KNOWS he's done something wrong. He responds to verbal commands or tone of voice - always obedient. But we had to work HARD to get him this way. Belly rolls alone didn't establish alpha.

That said, my original breeder seemed to suggest that just keeping up with the belly rolls would establish alpha - which is a serious error. Thankfully, I found someone else with 25 yrs of experience willing to help me raise my puppy. I am 100% convinced, by my own experience that most of the problems with ldg's are due to human error. I was completely unequipped to even interpret my dog's behavior correctly, let alone address it. Aloofness in an lgd is a desireable trait - unless you want a 'farm' dog, who won't guard against people. ( a very valid need) If someone had to tie a dog to keep it from being aggressive to someone, my guess would be that they weren't properly alpha to the dog.

We needed a dog that was people aloof because around here - you can get your goats stolen by human predators. Happens all the time. My dog shows the proper amount of aggression, and then either escalates or drops the situation, depending on the response of the 'intruder'. (we had to train him when he was young) I love that he doesn't bark like a maniac at them when it is 'over', like regular guard dogs. Still, he took a lot of work, there were dark days when we didn't think we could do it (ie raise him properly). I would NEVER recommend a male anatolian for a first time buyer.

My husband is definately alpha, but the rest of us (me and the three kids) are alpha due to our relationship to my husband. We have earned Max's respect too, and I think he also obeys us because he loves us - not because he HAS to. Nobody forces a 150+lb anatolian do anything.

niki

T Lynn · #10 04/12/06, 09:51 PM

Well, so far she has stayed in her pen near the goats. Every night I take her out while I am doing chores to let her run and interact with the goats. I have to move the milkers out because they do not like her and will but her just for sniffing them. But my yearlings will let her come up to them and sniff them. So, for now that is who she gets to be around, at least until she is a little bigger or rougher, whichever comes first. We do let the kids play with her in the goat pen. No rough housing, just running and loving. We are still trying to think of a name, if we do not name her soon then it will be puppy forever! And we are working on basic commands. I think that I am going to keep her in the small pen for another week or so and then move her to a larger pen with my yearlings.

If some of you can tell me things that you did that worked well, and also things that we should avoid it would really help. I want her to stay with the goats for the most part, but she will eventually have access to most of our 3 acreas.

dezeeuwgoats · #11 04/12/06, 11:35 PM

I think the mvc (most valuable command!) we taught Max was, "back off". I followed the directions in this article: http://www.luckyhit.net/guardd01.htm

A couple of opportune situations to reinforce the command once it is taught, and the pup is older (six months+) would be pushing a hay bale off the stack while saying 'back off' firmly. This let's the dog know that the 'back off' command is you looking out for her! It also reinforces a quick response because it is startling to have the bale fall and it makes a thud hitting the ground. Another one is a car door for the same reason.... I'd look for cool ways to reinforce it while our Max was going through his 'teenage' phase. Get creative!

Another good article, although very lengthy: http://www.luckyhit.net/ritestrt.htm Of course, these are all anatolian articles - but very good for lgd training, imo. I haven't found anything remotely as helpful on line as this site.

niki

dezeeuwgoats · #12 04/12/06, 11:36 PM

PS - the bale and the car door are not hurting the dog in any way - just nearby enough to startle.
niki

YuccaFlatsRanch · #13 04/13/06, 12:22 AM

My Anatolian puppies are raised with the sheep from 6 weeks old to a minimum of 4 months old BEFORE I ever consider selling them. If they show any stock agression they just disappear from the litter. I will tolerate no stock agression at all. Puppies raised with LGD adults from the time they become "aware - 6-7 weeks old" and are capable of bonding to something other than mom never seem to have the problems people report with puppies that are removed from the litter at 6-8 weeks old. My LGD are so stock loving that they help the ewes clean up the newly born babies - each of my LGD's seem to adopt a ewe and her lambs. The worst "punishment" I can inflict upon my LGD's is taking them away from their stock.