disbudding and mishaps

outofmire · #1 12/12/05, 12:49 AM

I recently borrowed a tape from ADGA that covers many of the basics, but I was primarily interested in the demonstration of disbudding because I wanted to prepare my nerves for all the screaming.

Anyway, the woman doing the demonstration used the Lenk iron, the one with the wire stand that goes all the way around the iron. She used that wire to flick off the horn button after burning twice for 5 seconds each time. I was suprised to see a smooth white surface under that thin little button. I'm thinking that must be the skull. If it is, she burned once more for about a second or less, each side, just to stop the oozing.

I was just curious what are the odds of causing brain damage. Have any of you ever had it happen? Or heard of it happening to someone you know?

Laura · #2 12/12/05, 02:40 AM

My sister and I were talking about that last week. She burned a nerve in one of her goat's head and he walked circling backward for several weeks. He eventually went back to normal. Her vet said it is quite common.

Teacupliz · #3 12/12/05, 07:41 AM

Fias farm has a great page on disbudding. In 10 years of disbudding many goats I have only had one die.. THe vet said he had a extreamly thin skull.
The rest are all well..
Liz
Teacup Farm

Jillis · #4 12/12/05, 08:08 AM

Liz, do you do your own disbudding?
The Nigerian Dwarf baby we got from a lady in New Hampshire had the shoddiest disbudding I've ever seen. They weren't even in line with one another. One was noticeably more forward on the skull than the other. At 3 1/2 months she is now getting some scurring. The Nigerian/Alpine cross I bought with her also has some scurring, although her's looked more "normal."
The 10 babies I bought from the dairy farm came with disbudding in the deal. I took 5 of them back to the owner and he puts them in a box he built. It is very narrow, and has a piece of wood compartmentalizing it right behind the front legs. There is a hole for their head, sort of like a milking stand with the head going up instead of forward, and then he puts a lid on it. This prevents them from getting hurt by struggling. It is not uncomfortable. He holds their heads still by holding their mouths shut with one hand and disbuds with a circular iron with the other. Takes seconds, and they are all clean. They seemed fine both during and after the procedure.
I am taking the other five back to him today, and he said I could bring the I got elsewhere and there is something he does to remove the little scurs. he started to explain it to me, and then said, "Just bring them, I'll show you!"
I may always have him disbud my babies...his wife and I waited outside, but they didn't make a peep. His wife said that some babies do make a fuss though.

moonspinner · #5 12/12/05, 08:27 AM

I'm guessing that "something" the owner does to scurs is banding. You take a little doughnut band used for castration and place it in the groove where the horn base meets the skin. Sometimes this works; sometimes not. The younger the goat the better chance. I know breeders who have great success with it, but I've never tried it. I do know you have to place those bands in the exact right spot to get a clean horn/scur removal. As for disbudding I think most people under-burn for fear of going too deep. If you underburn or don't get the entire base (right Liz?!) you will get scurs. If you're getting scurring on females, then you're not effectively doing the job. Scurring is mainly a problem with those stubborn horns of bucks. But done correctly you shouldn't get scurring. BTW, nigerians tend to be more difficult because of their wider base than most breeds.

outofmire · #6 12/12/05, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Laura

Her vet said it is quite common.

That's unsettling.

Jillis · #7 12/13/05, 12:48 AM

Well, we had the 5 babies disbudded today. A few of them made a little more fuss than the last batch. Marcel did the one scurring horn of the Nigerian baby all over again because as I said, the original person who did it did it all cockeyed. On the Alpine-Nigerian cross, he just took his pocket knife and scraped it off. It was just a little scur...
I am very glad it is over with. I hate the necessity, but to me it is a necessity.

chamoisee · #8 12/13/05, 01:16 AM

You can get brain damage and even death if the iron is kept on the head too long. I've never had it happen, but I've heard about it. :shudder:

Scurs- use wire cutters to cut them off or if loose, break them off, then burn the area well with a dehorning iron. It's easiest and gives the best results to do it right the first time. We had a lot of scurs because our solar/generator electric system didn't give quite enough juice to the iron. You can also cut off small horns and burn the area, but it's sort of a bloody nightmare. Larger horns- use a sawsall and have lots of help and a very strong stomach.....and an iron ready to burn the heck out of the area to stop the bleeding...

Teacupliz · #9 12/13/05, 07:40 AM

Jillis-

I have redone goats-- at 3 1/2 months you should be able to do that ND agian. If they fit in the box I can do them agian.
I have disbudded many with no problem. I would rather over burn then not burn enough and have them need to be doen agian. Or mess with scurs. Scurs are worse then horns. they twist and turn as they grow, and they break easy and bleed. I have a box and a RX30. When I first got goats I could nto even watch the disbudding being done. Now I do my own. No problem. They all do find.. ND- have to be burned the longest, then Lamancha and Nubians are easy-

Liz
Teacup Farm

Jillis · #10 12/13/05, 05:11 PM

Thanks, Liz. You are giving me confidence.

outofmire · #11 12/14/05, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teacupliz

Jillis-
ND- have to be burned the longest, then Lamancha and Nubians are easy-

We have ND, and I've heard they most prone to scurs. Why is that? It concerns me that they have to be burned the longest beings how they would seem to have the thinnest skull.

moonspinner · #12 12/14/05, 05:35 PM

With Nigerians they get scurs more easily because of the wider horn base. With bucks especially you generally have to burn wider than with other breeds.

goatkid · #13 12/14/05, 08:03 PM

I disbudded most of my goats this past year, myself. I had a more experienced friend do my Nigerian baby. My friend said she only killed one buckling when she was learning and that was because she left the iron on too long. We only leave it on 5-10 seconds at a time. You go to the white ring to prevent scurs. I had my friend remove one of my kid's small scurs with her iron. She was too big for the box so I held her tightly while the procedure was done. I was scared when I first started disbudding, but it gets easier with practice. Good luck.

outofmire · #14 12/14/05, 10:16 PM

Ok, but can someone assure me that they don't have thinner skulls. They are just so tiny, ya know? I'm not grossed out by the procedure, and I thought I could do it until I saw the white scalp in that video.

Ramblin Acres · #15 12/14/05, 10:57 PM

For $6 bucks a goat I just have my vet do it.That includes the sedation.Much easier on me and I think it is way easier on the goats.We have never had a problem with the babies having a reaction from the sedation and we have never lost a kid either.

moonspinner · #16 12/15/05, 06:30 AM

If you're disbudding for the first time I would highly recommend you watch the procedure a few times first. It's nerve wracking when you do it the first time and usually beginners make the mistake (understandably!) of not burning long or wide enough.

Tracy in Idaho · #17 12/15/05, 08:17 AM

The white little button is just the top of the horn -- I actually cut that off flat with my (clean) hoof nippers after I have burned the circle.

Your kids will be fine -- it's been done a zillion times.

Tracy

outofmire · #18 12/15/05, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tracy in Idaho

The white little button is just the top of the horn -- I actually cut that off flat with my (clean) hoof nippers after I have burned the circle.

Tracy

Really??? You mean the horn bud is white? And it's underneath the thing that you flick off?

Tracy in Idaho · #19 12/15/05, 12:18 PM

Well -- I guess it depends on how far down we're talking! The initial little piece off the top is just the tip and skin -- then there is the white horn part that I trim and reburn if I need to -- the raised inside of the circle if you will ....then if you take all of that off and go way down, then yes, that is skull!

Tracy

Ark · #20 12/15/05, 03:50 PM

If you have watched the video, you can do it! I had to do it my first time alone this spring without EVER having seen it done. I saw pictures online, and I read everything I could about it. I just couldn't find anyone close by to SHOW me how, and so I just did it. Did not have a single scur on any of the Nubians or Boer does, but when it came to Boer buck kid....

argh! They all have scurs. Hard headed little things. I even went back and RE-DID them, and still scurs.
So, I did 16 kids total this February, with no one to teach me. If you have a video, you are way ahead of me! I built my own disbudding box, too. I am kinda dreading it coming up again, but just cuz they scream so loud and it stinks.

Rachel