horse drawn wagons

garbear · #1 08/04/13, 07:09 PM

We own 2 horses. One is 12 the other 5. Both are well trained as far as riding. So here is my question. I am basing this off my Grandfather telling me his horses did everything. They rode them roped and worked cows and used to pull wagons. How big of a leap is it to train the horses to pull a buck board wagon.
Garbear

Raymond James · #2 08/04/13, 07:32 PM

It can be done the question might be who is going to teach you how to drive /hitch ? If you can find a teacher then yes it an be done.

Without knowing how to drive or teaching the quarter horse how to be driven I used to pull an empty chuck wagon by leading the horse that it was hitched to. Later figured out I could ride the horse while it pulled the wagon . Used to store it in a barn and have it out for a display during the summer. Moved it about 4 miles each way.

I would not try with a high strung animal but a quite /calm animal.

goodhors · #3 08/04/13, 08:02 PM

Totally depends on the individual horse. What we look at first, is how the horse responds to fright or strange things. Horse who turns and races away, even with a rider holding trying to hold him, is probably not going to make a Driving horse. Horses who spook sideways with a big jump, when surprised, probably won't make a Driving horse. Timid horses who always need a leader or a calming hand on them, to get past things, again, probably won't make a Driving horse.

Driving horse has to be bold, accepting of MANY weird and strange things as he goes along BY HIMSELF, out there in front of a vehicle. He has to BELIEVE that you will take care of all problems, save him from things that scare him. This courage, dependence, ability to face new things, takes a LONG time to develop with his Driver.

We believe that you have to totally train the horse so he can have a good base of knowledge to draw from, in new situations. You can't hurry the process, force the horse to go along by dragging it with a second horse, then hitching up the Pair and going off down the road. Horse has no basics, though you do see horses trained that way.

If you are not experienced with Driving horses, you should start out by looking for a local Driving Horse Club or group, to get involved with. They can steer you to local trainers, know about equipment for sale, teach you about SAFE equipment, how to check your vehicle to know if it is usable or going to fall apart when hitched. How to grease the wheels and other moving parts on the vehicle. Anything with wheels that has been sitting a year or more, NEEDS to be gone over, parts checked, cleaned and greased, brakes drained and refilled with new fluid so they work. Shafts that hung in the barn may be dried out, ready to snap, along with spokes on wooden wheels, if you put any stress on them.

Harness needs to fit correctly, be soft and comfortable, be attached to the vehicle correctly, so horse doesn't get hit with the vehicle trying to stop. Nothing rubbing holes in him, that is the wrong size, about to break with age. Over-oiling leather or dipping it in an oil bath, is very bad, and won't make worn places safe. Your new Driving friends can help you with this problem, if you are not knowledgeable about harness.

There also might be some local Driving Trainers, or you can get names to call, ask about lessons and training. It really is BEST to start with a Trainer, so you don't get hurt or damage your horse asking him things he is not ready to do. Horses are not usually very cooperative after being hurt Driving, and not safe either.

It is a lot of work, lots of time, to train a solid, dependable Driving horse for enjoying. With visiting a Driving Trainer, doing some lessons with a trained horse, learning about harness, vehicles, you can make a better choice to continue or decide not to Drive. It can be a LOT OF WORK, with so much involved to stay safe.

We do Carriage Driving, with light horses, so things we do are different than folks who do Draft horses. Different harness styles, vehicles, methods, terms for things we both use. Neither is wrong, just different in how they go at stuff.

Our horses are expected to perform their Driving at a high level, because we expect MUCH from them. At times your life can depend on that training, response to commands! They are "just started" here, until they get 100 hitchings behind them. Then they move into "Green Driving Horse" category for us. We MUST be able to depend on them doing as asked, EVERY TIME, so you have to keep working to get them that way. We drive often, but not daily, so it can take quite a while before we consider our newer Driving horse to be "trained" enough for going away from the farm.

Dependable Driving horses are more trained than most riding horses, so they can accept the stuff they meet without running away. It CERTAINLY is not like TV!! And the people you meet on the road can be totally ignorant, maybe even dangerous as they speed by, honking horns, give you no room. Other folks are overly nice, like Motorcycle riders who slow WAY down, take forever to pass with loud bikes!! They are trying though, so we always say thanks!!

Our horses also ride, multi-talented, so it is very possible to have horses who can do more than one job. Just takes more time and work. Ha Ha.

TroutRiver · #4 08/05/13, 07:51 AM

^^This. Very well said and I don't think I have anything to add.

You could probably do it, depending on your horse's temperament, but don't expect it to be a weekend project. It will take a LOT of time, research, work and dedication on your part.

jennigrey · #5 08/05/13, 08:38 AM

They can probably be trained to pull a buckboard. Most stock horses will have a temperament that will lend itself to driving. But the training itself is something that really should not be performed by a novice, and you will need training as a driver as well.

Training a horse to be ridden is fairly straightforward and safe, compared to driving training. When something goes wrong under saddle, you might come off and maybe the horse will run all the way back to the barn with his stirrups flapping and you'll come home to find him grazing in the yard. Maybe his saddle will have slipped underneath him. Maybe he will have stepped on his reins. Maybe he will be a little skittish about being ridden next time.

When something goes wrong in harness, things continue to go wrong even after you are no longer in the picture, and he might very well go through a fence or into a parked car because a horse running in harness has more thought to what is dragging along behind him than what is in front of him.. He might trip on part of his harness while running at top speed and break a leg. He will likely completely destroy whatever it is that he is pulling/dragging. You really have not seen a wreck until you have seen a driving wreck. And after a driving wreck, the horse is usually pretty traumatized and needs to be treated very carefully because you will be at an increased risk for a repeat occurrence for a while. Maybe a long while.

A horse that was or is "used for everything" probably got a LOT of use. He was used for everything because he was all they had. So he got lots and lots of use and work. He was used every day and had a close working relationship with humans. He didn't have a lot of excess energy to waste on being skittish. Grampa also lived in a time when there was a culture of working horses. The knowledge was readily available and you learned a lot just by watching others do it. There were plenty of people you could ask if you had a question about training a horse to drive or getting a day's work out of a horse in harness. That knowledge is now fairly hard to come by and is a specialized field of learning, only two generations later. Amazing how fast we loose that stuff.

Having said all that, I firmly believe that many - if not most - saddle horses should be trained to be driven. It makes them a more well-rounded citizen and gives them additional usefulness in the event that they become unable to be ridden or their owner becomes unable to ride. Some horses - through age or injury - cannot bear the weight of a rider, but can still be comfortable pulling a cart or a light buggy. As we age, we may become unable to lift a saddle onto a horse's back or mount from the ground. However, a light breastcollar harness can be separated into two or three sections, each of which weighs far less than a saddle. And there are models of cart that are easier to get in and out of than a pickup truck.

Maura · #6 08/05/13, 02:27 PM

Back in the day, horses were trained to drive before being ridden. Read Black Beauty. Teaching a horse to drive is a step by step procedure. Your horse is going to have this thing following it around. He has to trust you to care for him, have a great stop, and not be full of vinegar. You first get him to accept part of the harness, then have him drag something. My nearest horse trainer used pvc pipe because it is light and you can custom cut it to your needs. If you haven't really trained a horse yourself you should get someone to train your horse. He already understands wearing weird objects, turning left and right and "whoa". As the trainer is training the horse he can train you to, first with a well trained horse, and later with your own.

bronc · #7 08/05/13, 02:39 PM

I was an outrider for a chuckwagon racing team for several years and saw a ton of wrecks firsthand (google Clinton Chuckwagon Races for some "good" ones). Granted, racing and pleasure are two different deals, but one can turn into the other entirely too fast and a runaway wagon is something to fear so be very, very careful.

jennigrey · #8 08/05/13, 02:46 PM

Chuckwagon and chariot racing has got to be among the top insane equine sports of all time.

Barn Yarns · #9 08/05/13, 04:18 PM

No all horses will make it to being driving horses. I have owned a couple that made it most of the way thru it, but they just werent cut out to do so. dont be dissapointed if it happens. I agree that all horses should go thru driving... main reason... you can do practically everything in harness that you can do under saddle. its a great feeling when you get on your horse for the first time and they already know how to follow the rein and your voice commands!
seek out your local draft and or driving clubs. they are great for teaching and helping out. there are lots and lots of drafting/driving/farming/logging books and magazines out there too. you might find advertizing for someone local???

www.ruralheritage.com is a great read too.

garbear · #10 08/05/13, 07:07 PM

Thanks for the help. I live in a tiny town and the nearest store is 5 miles away. My wife has trained horses all her life. I have trained a few, but do not view myself a horseman by any stretch of the imagination. I will not want to get into racing. My Great Grandfather raced every Sunday on the way to church and back again. No matter what great Grandma did he never stopped until they got a car. 2 generations and common family knowledge and skills were lost. I have seen pics of my Dad who is now near 60 on the draft horses pulling hay out of the fields. Dad talks about him and his cousins tramping the hay in the barn to pack it in tight. He is now a Vet and works for a University.

Great Grandpa was one of the last in the valley to get a tractor. One of the reasons we are wanting to learn this skill and it may seem silly. Is to have means to get to town and get things we may need, and I think that having a horse trained to do this makes it much more valuable for other needs.
If anyone knows anyone in Utah a club or organization would be great. I'll be talking to our horse farrier who is a horseman. He may know some local drivers.
Garbear

goodhors · #11 08/05/13, 11:36 PM

Here is the contact person for your Region, of the American Driving Society. A Region has several States, so there may be folks close or far from your location.

Regional Director: Karen M. Garrett, Anderson, TX
Phone: 979-324-0048 Email: kmgarrett@prescottfarm.com

Territory: Arkansas, Colorado, Louisiana, New Mexico, Oklahoma, Texas, Utah

The American Driving Society is more carriage oriented, which means things traditionally carriage related. They are not doing pulling competitions, breed shows, though all kinds of horses and ponies will compete in ADS activities. Their site is at:

http://www.americandrivingsociety.org/index.asp

Lots of information for the activities and Rules if you compete, in that list on the left side. They also have Driving books to sell, though you might find the same titles in used book sale places. Doris Ganton is one of the books I always recommend. Her book on Training the Driving Horse, is straight forward in language, has excellent photos, as a help to preparing a horse for Driving.

I am with Barn Yarns, that not all horses will drive. They just don't have the mind for it, no matter how well you have prepared them for it. Our home raised horses, out of Driving dams, handled toward being driven, have made a higher percentage of success, but even then, we still have had horses wash out of the program. Just not the right kind of a mind. Great riding horses we purchased as older animals, move up to about a 50% wash out rate, and this is after being extensively tested with driving related activities before purchase. So it can be a heartbreaker, finding that the horse you like best, is not going to drive. At our house, that means they have to get sold on, because Driving is their main purpose here. Specialists in riding are just not allowed to stay. I can RIDE any of the others, as well as drive them.

So even taking your time, doing everything "right", is not going to MAKE that horse drivable. Probably not even an expert trainer could have him drive SAFELY. Horse usually will be trying to TELL you he is not happy driving during the steps, so as a Trainer person, you NEED TO HEAR HIM, or very bad things will happen later. Horse will appear cooperative, but deeper down is resistant. Probably won't be the first, or even the 5th or 7th time hitched. Our one horse waited until about hitching number 10, when she was confident she DIDN'T LIKE being driven and had gotten balanced enough to argue about it! It was a big mess that day!! Wrecked harness, cart parts, husband got hurt too. Took her to the best Trainer around for Driving, who worked with her several days, dragging stuff, then hitched to the cart, no problems. WE felt like schmucks, had done something wrong! Then one day the indoor arena door got left open, horse took off, pulled the long lines out of Trainer's hands and went OVER the five foot gate WITH the cart, ran off into the woods. She ended up stuck between two trees when they found her. Trainer said "No, she is not going to drive, BUT she will sell well as a JUMPER! They love horses who can clear 5ft gates!!"

Some of the other horses never got that far, were QUITE adamant they were RIDING horses, and were never going to Drive. No one's fault, they didn't have the mind for it. They got sold to some real nice folks, who loved and used them as riding horses very successfully. All of ours are quite talented, could do a variety of ridden skills, so they find good homes when they don't stay on here.

Driving is not rocket science, but it isn't a "Anybody can train a horse to drive. How hard can it be?" thing either. They might even get him hitched, but without deep training, great basics drilled into him over a long time, horse can react badly in a new situation if he has no basics to help keep him controlled. Those old days horses got plenty tired working daily, preferred to "save themselves" if possible when faced with new training situations. Being tired helped them be more accepting in many cases. Still is true, that a lot of Amish broke horses get REAL LIVELY when not used daily, kept worked down! Most of us don't use horses like the Amish, so we have to instill firm training in our animals to keep them cooperative. Not depend on just wearing them out.

Pat-wcWI · #12 08/07/13, 09:20 PM

I have trained all my horses to drive single way before they were ready to ride. You can start early with just ground driving. There is a lot you can do yourself if you have a harness.
Because they have blinkers on and can't see what's behind them, have someone make different noises behind them. When they are used to that, try pulling different things dragging on the ground. Gradually find as many noisy things as you can gradually getting heavier.
If the horse is working well I have someone pull the single horse cart behind, beside and then passing him
The next thing would be to use fake shafts or make some out of long branches so the horse gets used to feeling something along his side. Pull this contraption to the side from time to time as you ground drive to press into his side.
With plenty of work in the above steps, the cart would be hooked up next. I have never had a single problem and mine were all Saddlebreds, some rather nervous, but trusting.
I never trained a team, but people have told me one of the horses should be very well trained at pulling a wagon if a green horse is hooked with it.

Good luck with your team!

rod44 · #13 08/16/13, 05:31 PM

Many in our area, with a lot of amish, hitch the unbroke horse with a dead broke one (bigger) and off they go. Best if they can hook it as a third or fourth horse in some field work. Sweat under the collar is the best training there is. After being out many times as a team they will start hooking it single when they feel it is ready. They will then try to drive it everyday for a half hour to an hour. Usually within 4 to 6 weeks they can turn out a horse that is traffic safe on county roads with trucks and all. It would still take an experienced driver to finish making it a good overall safe and trained horse.

Grey Mare · #14 08/17/13, 09:07 PM

Just a note...ADS is a lot different than using a wagon or drafts to work and pull vehicles. The ADS folks are more adherent to rules and regulations, have much nicer vehicles and a different way and style of driving. I have one mare that has done both, the fancier proper driving and the work and farm wagons.

rod44 · #15 08/18/13, 07:08 AM

It is not just drafts that are trained that way. Many light horses are also started that way and then go on to fancier driving. Here is a 6 year old imported Haflinger stud that belongs to a friend of mine that my amish friend trained. It was started double and this is the fourth or fifth time it has been driven single (me). It was sold to out west somewhere and had gone on to win many show ribbons.

http://s384.photobucket.com/user/Rod...763-1.mp4.html

CraterCove · #16 08/18/13, 09:07 AM

So, any of you all who know about training to drive live around Gainesville FL? I have two chestnut POAs and two leopard spotted ones, two sets of mares and I'd love to aim their training towards driving before riding. I think it would be extremely educational for both them and me. I could definitely use a mentor/trainer for this. And hopefully I'll also be able to apply any such knowledge to training some goats too.