WWYD ... a not-so-hypothetical question

[SFM in KY]

With all of the recent threads on overbreeding, unwanted horses and rescue horses, thought I would throw this situation out and see what kind of feedback comes up.

Situation: Complete dispersal of small herd of Welsh ponies originally all registered but owner elderly, unable to keep up with paperwork, farm work, etc. so you have a number of yearling to 6 year old purebred Welsh ponies being sold (auction) not registered and not handled.

I have one. Lovely little mare, pretty, incredible movement, flashy color and about the time she came, I had to downsize. She wasn't handled consistently here until last year and I've never bred her.

Now a 7 year old and one I'd kept because she would fit well into my breeding program. I would be breeding her to a bigger stallion so last summer brought her in to work with her as I would A.I. her rather than live cover. Not a mean bone in her body but very, very tense and in several weeks, saw no improvement.

I will not keep something 'forever' that is not useful. I'm from a working ranch background and while we keep pets that are not strictly useful, a wild pony is not a pet. Her choices and mine are limited.

I don't actually know yet what my solution is going to be here but am curious as to what others would do with this situation as this situation definitely fits in those "there isn't a market for this so what do you do with it?"

[Irish Pixie]

If you can't use her and there's no sentimental attachment send her down the road, at least that's what I'd do. Tell her to write when she's found work.

[SFM in KY]

Originally Posted by Irish Pixie

If you can't use her and there's no sentimental attachment send her down the road, at least that's what I'd do. Tell her to write when she's found work.

Well, this is actually the dilemma. There is no market. She isn't going to "find work". I've seen unbroke small ponies go through the auction ring and not get a single bid. If I do that, I'm likely to be out the expense of the trip to the auction, the cost of the auction process and end up having to bring her back home.

IF I could give her away she would be likely to end up tossed out in a pasture with a stallion to produce more small ponies to be ignored if they weren't sold as cute, fancy colored weanlings.

[Irish Pixie]

You have two choices- keep her or sell/give her away. The "write when she has work" was a joke, apparently not a good one.

[Jackie]

Is there anyway of getting her broke to ride? You cant even give away an unbroke horse, but a broke one you might just break even. I have one here that is green broke and I wont sell him for less than meat price and I certainly wont give him away. My only other option really is to spend $500 and have someone put 30 days training into him and hopefully have him turn out actually broke. And then i can sell him and hopefully get the original $500 I was asking plus the $500 it cost to train him. Broke horses are still worth at least $1000 where I live while unbroke isn't really worth anything.

[SFM in KY]

Originally Posted by Irish Pixie

You have two choices- keep her or sell/give her away. The "write when she has work" was a joke, apparently not a good one.

I knew it was a joke ... and I've made some that weren't even *that* polite about this little mare. I've been known to tell her if she was in Montana and fur prices were decent she'd be coyote bait!

[2horses]

I'm not sure of the actual dilemma - you don't want to breed her because she's rather wild, or you can't touch her at all so can't breed her? If she still fits in your breeding program, but just needs to be gentled, I'd find someone to work with her if you're not feeling up to the challenge.

If she's totally unsuitable, you have no intentions of reproducing her, and you know you'll simply lose money on her and you have no desire to keep her, then put her down.

[SFM in KY]

Originally Posted by Jackie

Is there anyway of getting her broke to ride?

Unfortunately, no. She's too small for an adult to ride and at my age, I simply don't have the time and energy to put in to even getting her 'green broke' to drive. I'm also not sure, as tense and hyper-sensitive as she is that she would work out as a driving pony OR as a pony for a small child rider.

I don't have a lot of money in her and would certainly give her to someone IF I thought it would be a step forward for her rather than just a long trip to abuse and/or producing more 'unusable' small ponies for a market that doesn't exist.

[Otter]

For me a big question would be do you want to risk a foal -

Originally Posted by SFM in KY

as tense and hyper-sensitive as she is

Because while I know that the sire contributes to temperament, the foal is watching the dam and reacting with her.

Would she be a big enough attribute in an irreplaceable only-THIS-mare-can-offer-this sort of way, to your breeding program to make up for this?
If not, then the hard answer that none of us want to hear is send her down the road. Or p.t.s. if you really feel there are no chances for her down the road.
BUT, hey, since I'm guessing it's not, and this is not-so-hypothetical, lets see a picture then. One of us may know someone who knows someone who could use her for something.

And total thread drift, SFM, if a 2 yo looks about 12 HH, rough guesstimate on grown height? No info on sire but I should be able to see her and her mother in daylight this coming week. Someone can't pay me in cash for horse training, but they've got this filly ...

[oregon woodsmok]

And why are you breeding more ponies when you can't even give one away?

I'd get her broke. She's tense because you've never handled her. Even on pasture, if you don't work with the horses, they are no different than wild mustangs and they really do not like being removed from their herd and they get claustrophobia in a barn. All of that can be worked with.

If she moves well and is sensitive, she'll make a really fancy driving horse. My first driving mare was all fire and brimstone, and I drove her all over the place, even out in traffic once she learned she could trust me to not get her hurt. She was flash as could be and sure drew a lot of attention.

[SFM in KY]

Originally Posted by 2horses

I'm not sure of the actual dilemma - you don't want to breed her because she's rather wild, or you can't touch her at all so can't breed her? If she still fits in your breeding program, but just needs to be gentled, I'd find someone to work with her if you're not feeling up to the challenge.

If she's totally unsuitable, you have no intentions of reproducing her, and you know you'll simply lose money on her and you have no desire to keep her, then put her down.

All of the above, more or less. She's wild, but if you get her in a small pen, you can catch her and once you have a halter and lead on her, she's manageable, but every time you touch her she "freezes". I've worked with her consistently for 2 or 3 weeks and that doesn't seem to change. She's too small to live cover with the stallion I'd prefer to breed her to and when I have her in the squeeze and try to lift her tail, as I would if I were going to AI her, she clamps her tail down and crouches down.

I wouldn't have bought her if I didn't think she would "work" in my breeding program but I also thought she would be more manageable once she was worked with. I really don't know, at this point, whether the temperament is inherent in her or mostly a result of not being handled. Some of the small Welsh ponies can be 'hot' ... the small pony version of the hot TBs ... not particularly suitable for a small child rider certainly ... so that's another of my concerns. If it's her and she would pass this on to her foals, then she should not be bred.

[mekasmom]

Originally Posted by 2horses

If she's totally unsuitable, you have no intentions of reproducing her, and you know you'll simply lose money on her and you have no desire to keep her, then put her down.

You would kill a young, healthy animal simply because you would loose money in finding her a home? I hope you didn't mean that. Using animals for meat, or euthanizing an ill animal, is very different than simply wasting a life because someone is too cheap to loose a little bit of money.

Give her away. Money isn't everything in life. Either spend the time to break her yourself or find her a good home even if it is at a loss to yourself. Do the kind, right thing. Your pocketbook is not God.

[SFM in KY]

Originally Posted by oregon woodsmok

And why are you breeding more ponies when you can't even give one away?

I'd get her broke. She's tense because you've never handled her. Even on pasture, if you don't work with the horses, they are no different than wild mustangs and they really do not like being removed from their herd and they get claustrophobia in a barn. All of that can be worked with.

If she moves well and is sensitive, she'll make a really fancy driving horse. My first driving mare was all fire and brimstone, and I drove her all over the place, even out in traffic once she learned she could trust me to not get her hurt. She was flash as could be and sure drew a lot of attention.

I can't give away a 7 year old unregistered, unhandled pony in the current market. Over the last three years I have not been breeding, I've been selling everything other than what I plan to keep for my 'retirement years' ... right now 8 mares, downsizing from about 30. Some were given away because I wanted them to go to particular people, others were sold. I bred three mares last year, with plans to keep one foal myself and another one already spoken for.

She was three years old when I got her and was not even halter broke. I have had her up and worked with her for three weeks on a daily basis, one or more times a day and have seen no real change in her attitude.

My thought with her was the same, actually, as yours ... with the movement and flashy color and quick reactions ... she should produce exceptional driving prospects.

[birchtreefarm]

OK, as someone who knows zip, zilch, zero about horse training, I'm going to ask a potentially stoopid question.

Is 2-3 weeks really enough time to expect a change if she was basically unhandled her entire life?

[SFM in KY]

Originally Posted by mekasmom

You would kill a young, healthy animal simply because you would loose money in finding her a home? I hope you didn't mean that. Using animals for meat, or euthanizing an ill animal, is very different than simply wasting a life because someone is too cheap to loose a little bit of money.

Give her away. Money isn't everything in life. Either spend the time to break her yourself or find her a good home even if it is at a loss to yourself. Do the kind, right thing. Your pocketbook is not God.

If I could give her away to a home I truly believed would do something with her rather than put her at risk of years of neglect, if not abuse, and the possibility that someone will use her to produce more 'unwanted' ponies ... I would. However, that person has not stepped forward. It's not a money situation ... it's the risk that she would be subjected to a miserable life.

[SFM in KY]

Originally Posted by birchtreefarm

OK, as someone who knows zip, zilch, zero about horse training, I'm going to ask a potentially stoopid question.

Is 2-3 weeks really enough time to expect a change if she was basically unhandled her entire life?

Yes. Not for a mustang or some of the ranch horses that I worked with years ago that basically never saw a person on foot more than once or twice in their life before they were brought in and started under saddle. However, for a pony that was in a smaller pasture situation, saw people on a regular basis and was fed hay in the winter by people, then you should see a change in attitude with regular, quiet handling in 2 to 3 weeks.

A friend of mine and I bought a total of four ponies out of that group of mares and the other three were manageable, even mostly relaxed in the same length of time.

[tinknal]

Originally Posted by SFM in KY

If I could give her away to a home I truly believed would do something with her rather than put her at risk of years of neglect, if not abuse, and the possibility that someone will use her to produce more 'unwanted' ponies ... I would. However, that person has not stepped forward. It's not a money situation ... it's the risk that she would be subjected to a miserable life.

Are we back to the meat thread yet?.........

[SFM in KY]

Originally Posted by Otter

BUT, hey, since I'm guessing it's not, and this is not-so-hypothetical, lets see a picture then. One of us may know someone who knows someone who could use her for something.

And total thread drift, SFM, if a 2 yo looks about 12 HH, rough guesstimate on grown height? No info on sire but I should be able to see her and her mother in daylight this coming week. Someone can't pay me in cash for horse training, but they've got this filly ...

Yeah, obviously the mare exists and she's mine and I've been more or less beating my head against a wall trying to make a decision ...



As for the size question ... difficult to say without knowing what both sire and dam are, not only size but breed. If they are both ponies, then you're not likely to have a big jump to mature size ... maybe another hand ... as most ponies have the most of their growth by the time they are 2 years old and will be finished by the time they are 3 or so. If there is 'horse' in the background you may get a little more size and with my warmblood crosses I will see mine continue to grow until they are 4 or 5 sometimes. Not a lot, but some.

[birchtreefarm]

Originally Posted by SFM in KY

Yes. Not for a mustang or some of the ranch horses that I worked with years ago that basically never saw a person on foot more than once or twice in their life before they were brought in and started under saddle. However, for a pony that was in a smaller pasture situation, saw people on a regular basis and was fed hay in the winter by people, then you should see a change in attitude with regular, quiet handling in 2 to 3 weeks.

A friend of mine and I bought a total of four ponies out of that group of mares and the other three were manageable, even mostly relaxed in the same length of time.

Good to know. Thanks!

[ErinP]

Originally Posted by SFM in KY

Unfortunately, no. She's too small for an adult to ride and at my age, I simply don't have the time and energy to put in to even getting her 'green broke' to drive.

Solution is simple--
Track down a adolescent/teenager who is breaking horses.
They're out there.

They won't charge you as much because they know they can't, and they're light enough to be able to ride a pony.
A friend of ours' 14 year old has been breaking sale-barn horses he picks up for next to nothing and selling for a profit.
He started that little project when he was 12...

PS: If you were closer, I'd take her off your hands, KFM. Because heaven knows I need another project horse.