Kaopectate anyone?

Quinny · #1 08/01/14, 10:38 AM

Anyone here use kaopectate on their calves to help with diarrhea? My calf pepper just defeated scours and now I saw some yellow pudding like poop this morning. Neighbor recommended kaopectate as like a scours deterrent almost to keep the diarrhea away to prevent her from losing too much fluid.

Thoughts?
It seems like scours is inevitable for Pepper for some reason. I had it beat twice and now its back again? Wth. why?! I don't understand. I feed her milk replacer by tube feed 3 full bottles per day everyday, strict schedule and she's 4 weeks old and I keep her stall clean and I'm always encourging her to get up and walk around because all she wants to do is lay about.

purplequeenvt · #2 08/01/14, 11:27 AM

I don't know cattle that well, but this is my general thinking about using anti-diarrheals....

There is a reason that the animal has diarrhea and you should be treating the problem, not the symptom. Collect a sample of the manure and have the vet take a look at it. Calves get diarrhea for lots of reasons. Is the calf showing any other symptoms of illness? Fever?

Is your milk replacer all-milk or soy based? I've had calves get sick on soy based MR and they were fine as soon as they were switched to whole milk or all-milk MR.

If the diarrhea is really bad - super watery and the calf is getting dehydrated, I'd give electrolytes that contain a "gelling" agent of some kind to help stop the diarrhea.

Quinny · #3 08/01/14, 11:41 AM

My milk replacer is very high quality all-milk, pepper has fought scours twice already so now shes very thin and has never been that active in the first place so she always likes to lay around and do nothing.

I had her on electrolytes to defeat the scours, just trying to avoid scours all together now which seems impossible

**gone-a-milkin** · #4 08/01/14, 11:53 AM

Scours are caused by likely a BACTERIA inside her guts.
Unless you give her the proper ANTIBIOTIC she will not recover from it.
Bacteria don't just die on their own, you need medicine.

I know your dad doesn't want to pay the vet, but there you go.

Quinny · #5 08/01/14, 12:09 PM

I've been told time and time again antibiotics are not always necessary for scours recovery. A lot of times you just have to treat with electrolytes. But my vet will give me antibiotics if I need them, should I get her on antibiotics though asap?

**gone-a-milkin** · #6 08/01/14, 12:15 PM

You have had zero success without antibiotics for a long time now.
The calf is getting weaker and weaker.
Every day you do not use proper treatment you are narrowing the chances of recovery.
Also, the bacteria are causing damage inside of her, more each day.
Plus lack of nutrition which will stunt her growth, possibly permanently.

So yeah, I personally would be acting aggressively to get to the root of this problem
by having the vet run a lab test and get the proper medicine.

sv.maple · #7 08/01/14, 12:52 PM

Ive read all your post and noticed all the "needles" youve gave this calf and always say "your neighbor says" add all the cost of the stuff youve gave the calf up and at rate your goin youll have a vet bill paid if youd just called them first and had it looked at and not just guessed. I agree vets are costly but guessin and then losing calf after is lot more costly in the end. Im sure tubing the calf every day isnt helping your cause at all. Ive raised hundreds of calves and never had one that "didnt like milk" yes might not eat well but there always a diffrent reason. You need a vet or just do the calf a favor and put it out of its misery. Just my opinion

ksfarmer · #8 08/01/14, 12:55 PM

Do I understand from your original post that you are tube feeding this calf? Will he not suck or drink on his own?. If not you have big problems. As for the electrolytes, they aren't usually a treatment to cure scours. Giving the calf electrolytes is merely to replace the loss due to the scours and does nothing to stop the scours. This calf isn't long for this world if you don't get some vet advice.

Quinny · #9 08/01/14, 07:15 PM

I've been getting vet advice every single day I've had the calf. The vet does not recommend antibiotics because he is certain it's not a bacterial infection. Scours can be caused by many many things and cannot be avoided. He said what I'm dealing with is a unnaturally tube fed calf who is getting sick from tube feeding because the tube makes the milk go into the wrong stomach and way too fast, either has brain damage or doesn't like the taste of milk or has an upset tummy. What I have to do is get her to suck and I just fought with her for 40 minutes trying to get her to suck and nothing. I tried honey on my fingers and it worked for a bit and then honey on the nipple was a no go. My next step is to get a different nipple and add some baking soda to the milk to settle the acids.

purplequeenvt · #10 08/01/14, 07:32 PM

If she won't suck on the nipple, try to get her to drink out of a pail. Is this a calf that has been bottle fed from day 1 or was taken off her mother at an older age?

G. Seddon · #11 08/01/14, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quinny

I've been getting vet advice every single day I've had the calf.

Yet this calf has not been seen by the vet.

The vet does not recommend antibiotics because he is certain it's not a bacterial infection.

Have you had a fecal sample analyzed to determine this?

Scours can be caused by many many things and cannot be avoided.

Maybe this (from Colorado State) will help you:

http://veterinaryextension.colostate...ours%20101.pdf

I'm concerned that this is going on for a while with no improvement and is most likely not going to get better without some veterinary intervention.

SpaceCadet12364 · #12 08/01/14, 09:39 PM

Sounds like someone needs to water down the milk. Get it under 20% protein. Feeding to much protein is not good. ON digestion Just like when a cow eats new grass, alfalfa or to much clover it gives them the squirts. With a calf it is easier to do since lower body mass.

Quinny · #13 08/01/14, 11:03 PM

Okay first of all as I mentioned in my previous post, the problems are coming from being tube fed. I tried pail and she doesn't like the taste of the milk. And another thing, my vet doesn't even want to see her because he knows where the problems are coming from regardless of what he sees. He's not stupid and just tells me to keep doing what I'm doing. I came on here for advice on scours from personal experiences, not to be judged just because pepper hasn't seen a vet. She doesn't need to because she's making huge improvements. I just wanted personal experience advice. Nobody wants to spend more on a vet than a cow will be worth. I love her dearly but sadly she is a cow with a bad start and she will not make a good mother so we will not be keeping her.

She was pulled off her mother at 3 weeks of age because mothers milk went bad and she refused to suck on the bottle and never did like the taste of milk. I'm going to try pail feeding fresh farm milk to her if I accidentally am giving too much milk powder.

I thought this site was about helping each other and giving each other advice without paying a ton of money for a vet, I guess I was wrong. Sorry.

Quinny · #14 08/01/14, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sv.maple

Ive read all your post and noticed all the "needles" youve gave this calf and always say "your neighbor says" add all the cost of the stuff youve gave the calf up and at rate your goin youll have a vet bill paid if youd just called them first and had it looked at and not just guessed. I agree vets are costly but guessin and then losing calf after is lot more costly in the end. Im sure tubing the calf every day isnt helping your cause at all. Ive raised hundreds of calves and never had one that "didnt like milk" yes might not eat well but there always a diffrent reason. You need a vet or just do the calf a favor and put it out of its misery. Just my opinion

All the needles I have given her have not costed me a dime btw. I've spent about $130 on her so far and that's just milk replacer and electrolytes and other odds and ends like nipples. The calf is doing just fine now, thanks for your 'positive' input. And yes there are calves out there who don't like milk because they have had a bad experience with the mothers milk gone bad.

TK04 · #15 08/02/14, 01:08 AM

Pudding poop isn't the end of the world and can be normal as long as it doesn't get any looser. Is it possible the amount of milk she is getting is too much for her? If I read correctly and she is only 4 weeks old, I think I would only be feeding her a total of 4 quarts of milk or good milk replacer per day. Sometimes, too much milk can cause scours. Also, make sure the milk is the right temperature. Is she a pretty big calf or do you know how much she weighs? It's not any fun when they are sick.

Quinny · #16 08/02/14, 07:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK04

Pudding poop isn't the end of the world and can be normal as long as it doesn't get any looser. Is it possible the amount of milk she is getting is too much for her? If I read correctly and she is only 4 weeks old, I think I would only be feeding her a total of 4 quarts of milk or good milk replacer per day. Sometimes, too much milk can cause scours. Also, make sure the milk is the right temperature. Is she a pretty big calf or do you know how much she weighs? It's not any fun when they are sick.

The pudding poop has completely cleared up on its own and is hard again but still yellow.
Last night I put 1.5 cup of milk replacer in a 4 pint bottle and she seemed to actually kind of like that, the bag said about 2 cups for her age. I'm pretty sure she weighs about 100 pounds now not exactly sure, she's not overly a big calf cause she's still very skinny. She's starting to get way stronger, way more active (still wobbly legs though) and way fatter though! and overall wayyyy better.

TK04 · #17 08/02/14, 03:19 PM

If she seems to be on the right track now, maybe hold her at that feeding schedule for a bit. If you decide to add additional feedings, make the adjustment slowly or only offer a little bit of milk midday. She needs time to adjust her system to any changes. When everything has settled down, you can offer her some calf starter and a small amount of hay. She will probably only eat a very small amount of it to start with, which is good. That, too, will give her system time to adjust to the changes. As always, she should have clean water available to her at all times.

topside1 · #18 08/02/14, 08:17 PM

I'm not going to read the thread but will point out that the cup in the MR bag only holds 10oz and is that about to be mix with 4 pints water....in post #45 you mentioned that the calf is getting two cups MR powder. Most people never exceed the 10oz provided cup amount, the main reason is to promote the animal to eat grains and grasses.....Way to hard to explain, but maybe you are overfeeding your calf and inviting sickness. A Holstein calf for example would enjoy 10oz powder to 4 pints water. A Jersey calf enjoys 5oz powder to two pints water....that's the way it works...Topside

Quinny · #19 08/02/14, 08:33 PM

My milk replacer came with a 2 cup scoop, it says on the side of the scoop. Which had worked out to being just over one pint of milk replacer in a 4 pint bottle. Today I toned it to 1.5 cups of milk replacer and switched to a lamb nipple, starved her a bit and put honey on the nipple and she sucked back the entire bottle!!!! It was so amazing. I'm so proud of her and so happy I don't has to tube feed because that's where all of my issues came from. She's got solid poop, packing on the pounds and has gotten way more energy. Thanks for all the non negative people who helped me and gave me the advice I was looking for.
No thanks to the people who told me to put her down or get vet attention. I did this with the help of nice positive people and vet advice without needing to pay a thousand dollars to get a vet out to do the same things I was already doing!!

tab · #20 08/02/14, 08:43 PM

As for your original question, true kaolin or true kaopectate can do wonders. Not sure what you can get in Canada. Am a bit foggy on this, I have kaolin in my vet supplies. It is safe to give w/o stopping the mr. I think if you search this forum you will find loads of info on it. Seems to me it was after reading here thst I added it to my supplies.

As to a vet, I am pretty pro vet BUT, I have found if mine gives me info, which she usually does, and I research the issue, it may be as good as it gets. Sometimes that's the way it is. Heck, sometimes I cannot afford to go to the doctor! Also, if you think the cow board is bad, don't go to the pet section or horse, many of those people are over the top about vets!!

Most of it is given with heart as most of us seem to be pretty caring people.