If someone asked you this would you consider it?

crazyfarm · #1 05/28/14, 04:15 PM

We have 40 acres. We are in the process of obtaining the 40 next to us. Adjacent to both or properties is a couple with 40 acres and 5 cows. They are breeding their own so have a bull. We need to use the land we are obtaining for agricultural purposes. We are thinking cows. I think it would be nice to buy some heifers and make a deal with the neighbor. All of the cows can rotate through all our properties, so that's 120 acres combined, at no cost to him IF we can breed our heifers to his bull. What do you think?

crazyfarm · #2 05/28/14, 04:16 PM

I should add that all of the properties are fully fenced for livestock. We have a barn on each property. We have a hook up for cheap hay. So we could buy our own winter feed and keep all of the livestock warm and comfy. These people don't have a real barn it's more of a lean-to type thing.

hercsmama · #3 05/28/14, 05:20 PM

Well, last year we offered our neighbor behind us the use of 20 of our acres for his "problem" cow/calf pairs, there were 6 of them. he was thrilled at the offer, and ended up giving us a steer at the end of the year, along with use of one of his bulls anytime we wanted.
His choice on the bull,as he sells them for 15,000 and up...

But it sure was a win-win for us, and there is no harm in asking.......good luck!

WildRoots · #4 05/28/14, 08:05 PM

It sounds like a good idea now, but how well do you know the neighbor?

G. Seddon · #5 05/28/14, 08:28 PM

If you know nothing about cattle, you might want to consider getting proven cows as opposed to heifers. And you need to be sure "his bull" is a good match for whatever breed of heifer or cow you get (breed, size, calving ease).

Whatever you do, with whatever neighbor, needs to be in writing so that everyone knows who is responsible for what, etc.

WildRoots · #6 05/28/14, 08:30 PM

Dble post

Awnry Abe · #7 05/28/14, 11:36 PM

It'll get messy fast. There are fixed and variable costs that are not easy to divvy up. Who pays the vet when one gets sick/dies but the whole herd needs to be treated? Who pays for mineral? Vaccinations/de-wormers? Hay and pasture and rotation are a timing and judgment thing. Do you even have the same philosophies regarding cultivation (and general outlook on life?) What happens when they sell the bull and pick breeding stock more suitable to their goals? Who deals with the complexities of life with livestock when said life happens at inconvenient times? Aside from the last to really major points, the others can be dealt with "with a nod and a handshake".

Personally, I think you are giving up too much for access to their bull. The biggest thing you are giving up is control. The next thing you are giving up is your land. I betcha they would be willing to let the bull eat your grass for a month or three in exchange for keeping their bull occupied for said amount of time.

wannabfishin · #8 05/29/14, 06:18 AM

You are definitely giving up too much for the use of a bull. I would first approach them and tell them you are thinking about getting some cattle and ask how much they would charge for using their bull. around here you can get a the use of some bulls for free as long as you feed it good. totally free, dropped off and picked up when you are done with it.

nosqrls · #9 05/29/14, 06:28 AM

What if someone doesn't buy enough hay to feed theirs? We loan our bull for the price of feeding him and keep him well. So I would not do it.

crazyfarm · #10 05/29/14, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WildRoots

It sounds like a good idea now, but how well do you know the neighbor?

I've never met this neighbor. For years they rented the property to someone else. Now they've just moved in. I do know that he's not shot my stupid dog when my stupid dog goes over to guard his cattle. So I like him there.

crazyfarm · #11 05/29/14, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awnry Abe

It'll get messy fast. There are fixed and variable costs that are not easy to divvy up. Who pays the vet when one gets sick/dies but the whole herd needs to be treated? Who pays for mineral? Vaccinations/de-wormers? Hay and pasture and rotation are a timing and judgment thing. Do you even have the same philosophies regarding cultivation (and general outlook on life?) What happens when they sell the bull and pick breeding stock more suitable to their goals? Who deals with the complexities of life with livestock when said life happens at inconvenient times? Aside from the last to really major points, the others can be dealt with "with a nod and a handshake".

Personally, I think you are giving up too much for access to their bull. The biggest thing you are giving up is control. The next thing you are giving up is your land. I betcha they would be willing to let the bull eat your grass for a month or three in exchange for keeping their bull occupied for said amount of time.

I guess I look at it as wasted land right now. Of our current 40 acres we use probably 3 actively. The others have just been sitting there. So letting some cattle on it seems fine to me. The land is not good to begin with. It was super over grazed when we bought it so ideally we'd need to seed it anyway. The property we are buying is the same. The current cow property is a bit better than ours but not much.

So I guess this leads to a question. If I do get cows but don't make the deal with him will the cows break through the fence to get to each other? Particularly since he has a bull.

crazyfarm · #12 05/29/14, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wannabfishin

You are definitely giving up too much for the use of a bull. I would first approach them and tell them you are thinking about getting some cattle and ask how much they would charge for using their bull. around here you can get a the use of some bulls for free as long as you feed it good. totally free, dropped off and picked up when you are done with it.

If we use their bull it is literally next door. Would it's current herd of cows try to follow it through the fence? Would our cows try to follow him back through the fence?

I guess my main question now would be, how do you keep 2 herds of cows right next to each other? Will their be any problems there?

sassafras manor · #13 05/29/14, 11:15 AM

A strong fence and nicely charged hot wire along the adjoining properties will help keep his bull on his side of the fence. My neighbor allows me to use one of his bulls in exchange for me raising his replacement heifers (he provides feed and hay) in my extra pasture space. It is worth the effort to talk with him to establish a relationship if nothing else. Then as the relationship expands possibly approach the subject of working together?

crazyfarm · #14 05/29/14, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sassafras manor

A strong fence and nicely charged hot wire along the adjoining properties will help keep his bull on his side of the fence. My neighbor allows me to use one of his bulls in exchange for me raising his replacement heifers (he provides feed and hay) in my extra pasture space. It is worth the effort to talk with him to establish a relationship if nothing else. Then as the relationship expands possibly approach the subject of working together?

My current 40 acres is set up for hot wire. The 40 we are buying is not. The 40 this guy is raising his cattle on is just barbed wire. He is the only person on the section with cows so maybe his cows just don't see a reason to test the fence?

Awnry Abe · #15 05/29/14, 10:28 PM

Sorry, crazy, I didn't mean to sound all negative Nellie when you are full of well grounded optimism. I completely agree that getting cattle grazing is a great way to improve the land. Absolutely, you should dive in head first. That's what I did, and I didn't know the front end of a cow from the back.

I entered into an arrangement similar to what you proposed when I first started. At the time I started, I had the lion share of the land, he had the cows. He had the experience, I had none. He made fencing and irrigation improvements. Showed me how to work the herd, time the rotations, taught me how to bush hog, bale hay, when to wean and sell, Etc. Over time, as I acquired more experience, and started to level the head count, things started to get sticky, but not in a way that two people willing to make things work couldn't overcome. Ultimately, it was our mutual value of our neighborly friendship that kept us friends when things were not financially equitable. One day, fairly recently, I was as the cusp of trying to figure how to tell him I wanted to divest our commingled assets--without trashing our excellent neighborly relationship. I finally felt confident in the direction I was headed, and wanted to be able to make sharp changes without adversely affecting his operation. He was in no position, however, because he didn't have the land to support his half of the herd, and I knew that. Sticky, indeed.

Lo and behold, he came up to me and told me he had taken a new job with a new company that would have him on the road a lot. He said he didn't feel comfortable with saddling me with all of the responsibility managing our shared herd, so he sold his half. Sans 3-4 head that still run with mine. I feed them mineral, deworm, and vaccinate them. For that small blip in my expenses, in return, I get 1) backup, 2) help, 3) access to his pastures for a few turns a year, 4) access to his tool crib, and other intangibles, including his wealth of knowledge. We still have a couple of adjoining pastures with no dividing fence. Ownership of the bull is a bit of a grey area. All told, I know we will eventually get those ironed out, because he is a pretty awesome neighbor to have.

I suggest you determine your neighbor's general world view before committing to anything long term. Everything else will flow from that.

Regarding your fence question, a single strand of Hotwire will suffice--provided you have it at the proper elevation. With only one bull, you won't have an issue. But if you each have one, you'd probably find them balled up together in it at this time of year. It is actually the cows that put my hotwire to its limits by hopping over it like a ballet. It's the "grass is greener" dilemma. With 2 or more strands, no issues whatsoever. With my small dairy herd, my cows are constantly bellowing across the strand at my neighbors bull and cows. But no crossings in either direction. (Different neighbor). The calves do, though. A 2nd strand would stop them.

Enjoy!

crazyfarm · #16 05/30/14, 09:12 PM

I didn't feel you were negative. I appreciate your insight. I've never met these neighbors so I can't really say much about them. I do know they don't rotate the cows and they have no real holding for them off the land.

We encountered a sticky situation with family over cows before. The plan was to run them on all our land (70 acres combined, ours being 40 of it). BIL didn't work so he was going to go to auction and get the calves and handle them. We'd done this before. But when it came time for us to pick our calf they told us an outrageous sum for it. It was over the budget we'd allotted. I got very upset with them. They were trying to make a profit off us, family. The people who had actually provided 100% of the fencing supplies, more than half the land and several other farm things (chicken coop, pig fence, etc) for free. I will never go into business with them again. People like that aren't worth the air they breathe imo. Woo. Still anger a year later. lol

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awnry Abe

Sorry, crazy, I didn't mean to sound all negative Nellie when you are full of well grounded optimism. I completely agree that getting cattle grazing is a great way to improve the land. Absolutely, you should dive in head first. That's what I did, and I didn't know the front end of a cow from the back.

I entered into an arrangement similar to what you proposed when I first started. At the time I started, I had the lion share of the land, he had the cows. He had the experience, I had none. He made fencing and irrigation improvements. Showed me how to work the herd, time the rotations, taught me how to bush hog, bale hay, when to wean and sell, Etc. Over time, as I acquired more experience, and started to level the head count, things started to get sticky, but not in a way that two people willing to make things work couldn't overcome. Ultimately, it was our mutual value of our neighborly friendship that kept us friends when things were not financially equitable. One day, fairly recently, I was as the cusp of trying to figure how to tell him I wanted to divest our commingled assets--without trashing our excellent neighborly relationship. I finally felt confident in the direction I was headed, and wanted to be able to make sharp changes without adversely affecting his operation. He was in no position, however, because he didn't have the land to support his half of the herd, and I knew that. Sticky, indeed.

Lo and behold, he came up to me and told me he had taken a new job with a new company that would have him on the road a lot. He said he didn't feel comfortable with saddling me with all of the responsibility managing our shared herd, so he sold his half. Sans 3-4 head that still run with mine. I feed them mineral, deworm, and vaccinate them. For that small blip in my expenses, in return, I get 1) backup, 2) help, 3) access to his pastures for a few turns a year, 4) access to his tool crib, and other intangibles, including his wealth of knowledge. We still have a couple of adjoining pastures with no dividing fence. Ownership of the bull is a bit of a grey area. All told, I know we will eventually get those ironed out, because he is a pretty awesome neighbor to have.

I suggest you determine your neighbor's general world view before committing to anything long term. Everything else will flow from that.

Regarding your fence question, a single strand of Hotwire will suffice--provided you have it at the proper elevation. With only one bull, you won't have an issue. But if you each have one, you'd probably find them balled up together in it at this time of year. It is actually the cows that put my hotwire to its limits by hopping over it like a ballet. It's the "grass is greener" dilemma. With 2 or more strands, no issues whatsoever. With my small dairy herd, my cows are constantly bellowing across the strand at my neighbors bull and cows. But no crossings in either direction. (Different neighbor). The calves do, though. A 2nd strand would stop them.

Enjoy!

Carol K · #17 06/01/14, 06:28 PM

I value my bull and wouldn't dream of letting someone use him. Unless you want to test all your cows for things like Trichomoniasis and any other std's that I don't want brought back to my herd.

Carol K

tommyanunnaki · #18 06/02/14, 12:11 AM

I believe that deals like this most likely end up with one or both parties not thrilled with the other one. I would keep my animals to myself and then barter for the use of his bull later if I needed it. I am leery to work on just a hand shake with folks unless I absolutely have to.

Jennifer L. · #19 06/02/14, 06:10 PM

I wouldn't do it. It's one thing to have a bull on your place that's getting free board for breeding, but not their whole herd.

opportunity · #20 06/07/14, 11:53 AM

I have been doing something similar with another family for four years. We had the bull to start with and they had more land and were old. We put up their hay and used their winter pasture and did all the work. They now have gotten a bunch more cattle as the son moved home. I'm not in a position to do as much work now with my cows so I have paid to run mine with theirs this summer. Our arrangment has changed each year but it has worked for us as long as we talk about it. We did not know the family at all when we started this but we are very good friends now.