FS cow/calf pair Dexter / Highlander / Holstein

Wintersong Farm · #1 04/30/14, 11:57 AM

One three-year old cow with calf at side. Cow is Highlander on Holstein. Bull calf was born on 4-5 out of purebred Dexter bull (on premises). Very winter hardy - calves born outside in December, February, and April and all did well. Located in central Wisconsin. $2,500 for the pair.

Wintersong Farm · #2 08/12/14, 03:30 PM

Calf is doing great. Still available together or separately.

haypoint · #3 08/19/14, 09:16 PM

As one who avoids cross breeding and discourages others from cross breeding, except in rare situations, I can only shake my head.

Cattle breeds are generally distinct animals, selected for a set of characteristics specific to that breed, over many decades. Highlander on Holstein? Do you get a heavy coat and good mothering ability or do you get a large framed cow that produces lots of low cream milk? Then you throw that genetic amalgamation at a Dexter? It matters that it was a purebred Dexter? Why? What was the goal? Were you trying for a set of specific traits or just throwing together what ever was handy? Have you castrated the quarter Holstein, quarter Highlander, half Dexter bull calf yet? Why not?

Is the cow quiet enough to milk or is it more like a large, less hairy Highland that is hard to handle?

I don't write this to criticize you, more as a way for others to access their breeding plans.

Rosepath · #4 08/21/14, 06:08 PM

Maybe she's just wanting to raise beef calves for the freezer. The lack of a halter on the cow indicates such - a dairy cow should be halter-broke and easily led (not that all of ours have been, durn it). It does seem a lot to ask for cross-breds with an unclear purpose, but maybe the market up there is better than here.

gjhinesjr · #5 08/21/14, 08:06 PM

I'm a little surprised at the response Haypoint.

As someone who just chose to crossbreed my Jersey to a Norwegian Red I was surprised to see such animosity towards the idea. In fact just in the dairy cow sector there is a huge movement right now to crossbred to increase health and fertility traits in the Holstein in particular.

Not to mention crossbreeding is big in beef cattle, and pigs as well.

I completely agree that people need to understand that you don't always get the best of both worlds when you do cross, you're equally likely to get the worst of each, but that's hardly a reason not to, imo. In fact, I think one of the biggest travesties out in the world of small scale farming is the lack of genetic material suited to the unique aspect of this endeavor. Sure we have heritage breeds, but their numbers are so diminished and breeding selection so lax (in order to promote greater numbers) that the examples we have today are rarely perfectly suited to the objectives of small farming. Crossbreeding allows us to better breed for a perfect animal in general and not have to constrain ourselves to any breed standard. You pick sires pre-potent and well vetted for certain traits and your odds of success increase.

That being said I love seeing people try different combos. I'm not too far away from her and can tell you that I've thought of putting a Highland over my Jersey in an effort to increase winter hardiness, increase her bone, and add some much needed body condition over her commercialized american genetics.

Afterall, crossbreeding is how we ended up with so many breeds in the first place. People saw a need, and bred for it.

I say kudos Wintersong Farm. If I were closer I'd come take a look just for the fun of adding something different to my farm (ironically I leave for milwaukee tomorrow, but I digress)

haypoint · #6 08/21/14, 08:34 PM

I an sorry if it came across too strong. Sure, there are reasons for crossing some breeds. But I was just having trouble imagining any purpose for a Holstein Highland cross. Got any ideas? Besides, a cross breed isn't an equal blend of two breeds. Often you don't know what you get.
I see crossbred horses on CL all the time, no one wants them. I see crossbred cattle at Auctions and they take a deep discount if it is obvious as a Holstein Highland would be.
If you have a Holstein and want a more hardy cow, sell her and buy a Highland. If you have a Highland and want more milk, sell her and buy a milk breed.

But a large framed cow of unrecognizable breed and a tiny, cute, calf. It is all beef, I guess.
I hate to see you cross a Jersey, a breed kept pure for hundreds of years crossed with a bull that isn't even considered a breed. Please reduce my ignorance with an explanation of your goal.
I see thousands of mostly Holstein dairy cows, but have not detected any crossbreeding movement.
We all do things as if our choices will remain ours forever. But I see too many odd ball crosses sell in the cull pen before their time.

Awnry Abe · #7 08/21/14, 08:40 PM

If one has a milking cow, the first order of business is usually to get it back into lactation. What hits the ground is usually an afterthought. I usually beg for a bull calf...

Eta: said all that without knowing anything about dexters. Are they a dairy breed?

haypoint · #8 08/21/14, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awnry Abe

If one has a milking cow, the first order of business is usually to get it back into lactation. What hits the ground is usually an afterthought. I usually beg for a bull calf...

Eta: said all that without knowing anything about dexters. Are they a dairy breed?

They are a tiny dual purpose breed. Some claim gentle, but I've seen a herd that was wild as the wind. Same as many breeds, I guess. Sort of like a Boat-car or a Plane-car. Dual purpose, but not very good at either, IMHO.

ufo_chris · #9 08/22/14, 04:23 AM

Hybrid vigor is supposed to be a good thing.
Some people want traits from 2 completely different breeds ,lots of people actually.

haypoint · #10 08/22/14, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ufo_chris

Hybrid vigor is supposed to be a good thing.
Some people want traits from 2 completely different breeds ,lots of people actually.

Oh.
Any thoughts on what traits one might seek from a Highland Holstein? How about a Dexter Holstein Highland?
I see Herford Angus and Semimetal Angus, but those are not completely different breeds. But the dairies see are either all Holstein or all Jersey, A few will have a different breed cow or two, but crossing completely different breeds? No.
I would think that if lots of people crossed completely different breeds, we wouldn't have breeds at all, just an assortment of cattle of all sorts of traits.
Hybrid vigor is a good thing, especially if you have been breeding within a small gene pool. But, after breed organizations have spent hundreds of years selecting the best traits for their specific breed, throwing a Holstein under a Highland bull isn't likely to be seen as an improvement by either breed association or by anyone that knows cattle.
Hey it is a free world, do what you want. But I see too many sad cases go through Sale Barns that are the result of, "Hey, I wonder what this would look like?"

Birth weight? Different breeds have differing calf birth weights. Can a large framed Holstein Highland cow be bred to a Holstein and safely calve a large calf? Would you have go with bulls from smaller calf birth weight breeds?
I believe that if you have one breed and you seek other traits, just sell what you have and buy what you want. If I had a Holstein and wanted a smaller cow, I'd sell her and buy a Jersey. If I had a Jersey and I wanted to have a beef cow, I'd sell her Jersey calf and buy a beef calf.
If I had a car and wanted a truck, I wouldn't cut it in half and weld on a pickup box to it. I's buy what I need.
Holsteins are large framed cattle that produce lots of milk. Half of their calves are steers, grown for meat but sell for less than beef cattle. Highlands are promoted as hearty cattle. They have lots of long hair and people often raise them for their unique look. Recently the tiny Dexter has become popular with small one cow farms. They don't eat much, produce enough milk for a family and you can eat the steers.
Crossbreeding doesn't add traits, it only is a grab bag of traits you have not control which ones will appear. IMHO.

aoconnor1 · #11 08/22/14, 07:27 AM

Haypoint, I strongly agree with you on this one. As a horse rancher and breeder, I am quite opposed to crossing out my well bred QH's or my high end Thoroubreds with any other breed. The one time I willingly crossed out my top TB mare was a very well researched, well thought out breeding for a very specific purpose. If my mare hadn't had excellent conformation and character, as well as the stallion having the same, it never would have happened. I got exactly what I desired and have never bred her again.

I have an Appendix gelding that is "all" QH. I don't see ANYTHING of the supposed TB other side of him. He is stubborn and lazy, not what was probably intended by his previous owner. But that's what happens when you cross out two fairly different breeds, you can get nothing that suits you and you wind up passing the poor character/physical trait animal on to some else.

I see your point in cattle. Down here there are tons of Brangus, and in fact my bull is a red Brangus. Those two breeds compliment each other nicely and make for one big, hardy beefer. Brown Swiss and Angus are crossed out a lot as well, and again they are such similar breeds that they compliment each other very well (My bull has two gorgeous bull calves on the ground out of two large Brown Swiss girls). But I can't imagine intentionally breeding a Brown Swiss with a Mini Zebu (just an example of opposite breeds ). The point would be...? Just as you are saying about your dairy cows, some crosses just won't work well and should be left alone!

MO_cows · #12 08/22/14, 02:25 PM

Crossbreeding and composite breeding has its place. Hybrid vigor or heterosis is about the only thing in the cattle business you can get for free!

You aren't looking for growth from hybrid vigor in a horse, of course.

Many beef breeds have had an infusion of Brahman blood for heat tolerance and overall toughness: Brangus, Red Brangus, Simbrah, Santa Gertrudis, Beefmaster, the Noble line, on and on. It works. The Hereford/Angus F1 black baldy cow is a queen of the commercial beef business. It works. Gelbvieh has their Balancers, and other breeds have opened up their herd books to crossbreeding, and even give it a brand name and promote it. It's working. So crossbreeding isn't automatically a bad idea, there just needs to be a plan, a sound strategy behind it.

On the dairy side, crossing the dairy with beef should bring the milk production down to family cow levels, or "raise a calf without worrying about mastitis" levels, and also put more beef on the critter. But a Highlander wouldn't have been my first choice with Holstein, either. Seems like Jersey/Highlander makes more sense if Highland and dairy traits are what you wanted to blend.

G. Seddon · #13 08/22/14, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Awnry Abe

If one has a milking cow, the first order of business is usually to get it back into lactation. What hits the ground is usually an afterthought. I usually beg for a bull calf...

Eta: said all that without knowing anything about dexters. Are they a dairy breed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

They are a tiny dual purpose breed. Some claim gentle, but I've seen a herd that was wild as the wind. Same as many breeds, I guess. Sort of like a Boat-car or a Plane-car. Dual purpose, but not very good at either, IMHO.

I'll interrupt just to respond to this and let you see one of my most beautiful Dexters with her calf (taken a few years back); she was actually someone's family milk cow before we got her. She's a saint.

FS cow/calf pair Dexter / Highlander / Holstein - Cattle

eon69nc · #14 08/22/14, 07:24 PM

I enjoy crossbreeding, JerseyXNormande, NormandeXBrahman. I know all too well about the effort involved in creating standard breeds, but for me it is my own personal choice to gain Hybrid Vigor on the calfs which go into the freeze. As I am not selling my animal to the public I dont worry about impact. I have known several ppl who have to use a local bull at hand to get milker back in production then sell offspring that is something I dont agree with.

Awnry Abe · #15 08/22/14, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eon69nc

I enjoy crossbreeding, JerseyXNormande, NormandeXBrahman. I know all too well about the effort involved in creating standard breeds, but for me it is my own personal choice to gain Hybrid Vigor on the calfs which go into the freeze. As I am not selling my animal to the public I dont worry about impact. I have known several ppl who have to use a local bull at hand to get milker back in production then sell offspring that is something I dont agree with.

Guilty as charged. Just what is the issue here? Am I crossing some ethical line that I didn't know existed?

lakeportfarms · #16 08/22/14, 08:47 PM

What a pretty Dexter G. Seddon!
If there are questions about what a Dexter is good for, she answers it perfectly.
Compare her to what passes as a Dexter nowadays and what most are familiar with, and it is no surprise that there may be some uncertainty about what exactly defines the breed. A real shame...

eon69nc · #17 08/22/14, 09:13 PM

Abe, I don't think you are crossing any line with selling, for me it is just something I don't do. I should have stated sometimes ppl will take them to sale barn and you invest money in what for example you thought was a black angus and as it get's older you realize something just is not right. Honesty is the best policy. I was just using my practice as an example no judgement from me. I don't have any right to judge other ppl's practices as long as animals are well cared for.

Wintersong Farm · #18 08/26/14, 12:43 PM

The purpose of Highland on Holstein was to have hardy brood cows that could handle winter outside in Wisconsin. Highlanders are slow maturing, which is corrected by the crossbreeding. The Dexter bull produces a beef calf with better meat attributes than an Angus, but not suited to the wholesale market. In summary, hybrid vigor, winter hardy, good milk production, produces great beef with minimal inputs on my farm.

G. Seddon · #19 08/26/14, 01:14 PM

Wintersong, you're entitled to breed and cross anything you want. If it works for you on your farm, then go for it. Just realize that some crosses, esp. with 3 breeds, might be hard to sell. I hope you'll be able to sell yours. That's a very cute calf.

haypoint · #20 08/26/14, 04:18 PM

Buy a Hereford heifer and treat her like a show cow. Lead her, halter her tie her, touch her all over. Breed her to another Hereford and get her used to being fed in a milking stanchion. Plenty of milk for a family, hardy enough for a WI winter and a whole lot of high quality beef.

Glad you opted to get rid of the horns. Yes, that's a cute calf.

With the reported fence jumping abilities of the Highland, I can't imagine adding Holstein legs and frame to one.