Need help with sick cow

pymalovefarm · #1 04/14/14, 07:26 AM

We have a black angus cow who is a bit older (not sure on her age because she lost her tag). She has had extreme diarrhea for about 3 weeks and has noticeably lost weight. She acts like she doesn't feel good, moves very slowly, and is crying (tears running down her face). She will let me get close to her but not touch her (most of our cows won't let us get so close). She is also pregnant which has me extremely worried (not sure of due date since she lost her tag). We have her separated from the rest of the herd so we can ensure she is getting enough food and water, but have noticed that for the last 2 days she is only eating fresh hay but not drinking any water. Last week we gave her 2 rounds of electrolytes (DuMor brand) and VitaFerm boluses (a mineral pill with probiotic designed to jump start the digestive system). We had a steer a few weeks ago with the same symptoms (other than the crying) and this worked for him, so we gave her to 2 rounds and waited to see if she would respond, but she hasn't yet. We gave her another VitaFerm bolus last night and another dose of electrolytes that she actually drank (yay!).
I am trying to avoid calling the vet if we can find any way to treat her ourselves (and avoid the $50 vet call fee just so she can come give a shot and say she has no idea what is wrong with her). Does anyone have any suggestions on what might be wrong with her or things we can try to help her feel better? Thanks!

G. Seddon · #2 04/14/14, 08:13 AM

I seriously doubt that electrolytes and an appetite stimulant are going to help this cow, though they probably won't harm her. I believe you will probably need some diagnostic work done (by a vet). "Extreme diarrhea for about 3 weeks" with noticeable weight loss would be a big concern for me, especially in a pregnant cow!

My advice would be to cough up the $ to have the vet out to properly examine this cow. At the very least, take a fecal sample to the vet's office, along with a list of symptoms, what you've "treated" her with, and get some professional advice. I think you're at risk of losing the calf and the cow.

ksfarmer · #3 04/14/14, 08:29 AM

A $50 vet fee beats a dead cow... I agree with G.Seddon , 3 wks and weight loss means trouble that you better diagnose quickly.

DaleK · #4 04/14/14, 11:31 AM

You need a vet. You've already lost more than $50 on her and you're going to lose a lot more if you keep screwing around. Could be many things up to a floating DA (which is what it kinda sounds like to me).

crobin · #5 04/14/14, 11:40 AM

Agree with everyone else. Don't know what part of the country you are in, but our vet told us blackleg is running wild in texas.

MO_cows · #6 04/14/14, 11:46 AM

Another vote for the vet.

A heavy bred Angus cow would be worth close to $2000 at auction. Not spending $50 for a vet call is really short sighted, IMHO.

Besides the money you have an obligation to the well being of this animal in your care. She has suffered for 3 weeks, your course of treatment didn't work, now it's time for the professional.

A good relationship with your vet can be such a benefit to your operation, but waiting until an animal is at death's door before you grudgingly call them isn't much of a relationship.

Patchouli · #7 04/14/14, 01:00 PM

I agree with everyone else it is well worth the $50 to get the Vet out.

idigbeets · #8 04/15/14, 05:59 AM

Get the vet out.. also... since you said this problem cleared up in your steers.. I'm doubting it is Johnes disease, but have you ever had your bought in animals tested?

pymalovefarm · #9 04/26/14, 06:32 AM

Sorry it took me so long to respond. It has been absolutely crazy around here. We called the vet and she had us give the cow charcoal, amino acids, and some probiotics. That seemed to perk her up for about 2 days, but then she went back downhill. Unfortunately, we had a steer diagnosed with Johnes a few weeks ago, so we and the vet are pretty sure that is what is wrong with her (no point in doing the test since it takes 3-4 weeks to get the results and we are pretty sure she won't last that long). As far as we know, there is not much you can do to help the cow when they get to this point (if anyone knows of anything different I am always open to suggestions). She went into labor on Sunday and was in labor for 3 days and her calf was stillborn. The calf looked about a month early. The guys have decided that they do not want to put any more money into her and, being that we are having problems with some of the other cows who are having healthy cows, they/we have decided that we need to spend our energy and facilities on helping the rest of the herd. This decision absolutely kills me because I love all of our cattle. I am not the only partner in this business, and since I am the least experienced, when I don't know how to fix a problem, my opinion sometimes gets overruled.
Of course, if anyone has any suggestions on how to help her or even keep her comfortable, I am always open to learning. I appreciate everyone's advice (we did call the vet the next morning, by the way) and wish this situation could have turned out differently.

Athena · #10 04/26/14, 01:21 PM

I'd suggest a bullet would make her comfortable. I post this only because the way you write about the decision not to put any more money into treating her suggests leaving her to live or die on her own. Sorry if I've read you wrong.

pymalovefarm · #11 04/26/14, 02:07 PM

Athena,
Yes, a bullet is one of the options we are considering. The other is the sale barn. I guess I'm just holding out hope that she might recover a little bit since she is no longer carrying her calf and her body can focus on repairing itself now. This whole situation is a hard one and hopefully not one that we have to deal with too many times.

G. Seddon · #12 04/26/14, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pymalovefarm

She went into labor on Sunday and was in labor for 3 days and her calf was stillborn.

In labor for 3 days? Please tell me that's a typo!

Did the vet ever actually SEE this cow -- or was the advice for charcoal, etc., given over the phone? I believe the blood test for Johnes does not take nearly as long as the fecal test; being that you already had a steer confirmed positive, I can't imagine your vet being unwilling to test this cow (unless, of course, the steer's diagnosis was done by phone too). If Johnes is the correct diagnosis, then your other cattle are at risk as well.

In any event, if you don't know for sure what is wrong with this animal, then please don't pass her on to some unsuspecting person at the sale barn.

Not sure how long you've been involved with cattle, but I think there is a steep learning curve ahead for you and your partners. It may sound harsh, but what you've described is not the way to treat animals in your care. JMO.....

Patchouli · #13 04/26/14, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pymalovefarm

Athena,
Yes, a bullet is one of the options we are considering. The other is the sale barn. I guess I'm just holding out hope that she might recover a little bit since she is no longer carrying her calf and her body can focus on repairing itself now. This whole situation is a hard one and hopefully not one that we have to deal with too many times.

You are going to take a cow you think may possibly have Johnes to the sale barn? Seriously? Why would you do that? Put a bullet in her head and get the rest of your herd sorted out.

wr · #14 04/26/14, 03:55 PM

I completely disagree with even considering selling a animal known to be sick through the sale barn and while it may solve a short term problem, it causes some serious long term damage to ones reputation.

It sounds like you and your partners lack experience or organization but in my opinion, no animal should be left to suffer nor should they be left in labor for days. You might want to get your internal priorities in order before you go any further with this project. I might sound hard hearted but watching livestock die slowly is neither humane nor good business.

pymalovefarm · #15 04/26/14, 04:23 PM

Okay, so let me throw a few facts out there since I feel I am being attacked since I didn't give my entire life story. I have less than 6 months experience at this. 2 of our partners have been running this farm for over 20 years, yet now that we are here, we have found out that they have no idea how to really take care of the cows. They put the cows out in the pasture and if they lived, they lived, and if they died, they died. We have fallen in love with the farm and the cattle and have decided to stay and try to make things better here. I do not appreciate attacks just because we do not have the experience and are not handling things perfectly. We came to this website looking for help because we had exhausted all other avenues, which is so incredibly sad (that we have run out of places to turn for advice). There are no other farms like ours in the area and the only advice we get is to load the animals up with drugs or send them to the sale barn. Based off of the other posts I saw on this website, I thought we would get kind, caring, helpful responses, not attacks. Yes, we have little experience, but we are doing the best we can and trying to learn everything we can to take care of these animals and save the farm.

With that being said, I would like to address some of comments that were made:
1. Yes, our vet did prescribe the medicine for the cow over the phone. She did not make a firm diagnosis, but her information was based off of the observations we had made, her knowledge of treating animals, and the history of our animals. We agreed to treat her with the medicine she prescribed and if it didn't work in a few days, then we would try another avenue. Doctors have been known to prescribe medicine over the phone and I do not see anything wrong with what she did. It was our decision not to go back to the vet for more medicine (and there are a multitude of reasons why we did not do that).
2. Yes, I do know that there is a blood test for Johnes. We just recently found that out and for some reason our Vet does not do that test. So we are still researching that process. Yes, this does not sound good for the Vet and I agree. It really ------ me off. But, she is the only vet in the area, so we have to work with what we have. However, I do not see the point in spending the money on testing her for Johnes when she has every clinical sign of the disease and we have just found out that we do have the disease in our herd. We only found out about the Johnes about 2 weeks ago, so we are still digesting this information and trying to find out how to save our herd. This has been a devastating diagnosis, but it is not my fault that this happened, and the only thing I can do is try to fix it, which is not going to be easy.
3. I do appreciate your feedback on not sending her to the sale barn. I have been researching whether or not we should do this, but believe it or not, there is not much information out there that tells you what to do with your cattle that have Johnes. All it says is to cull them. I have not found anything that says how to go about culling them. This is the kind of guidance that I was hoping to get from this forum (I just wish it had been given a little more kindly).
4. It kills me that this cow was in labor for 3 days. Unfortunately I was out of town. The vet was also out of town. And my husband was the only one at the farm and had about 50 other emergencies with the rest of the herd to deal with. He had to make the very hard decision to save 3 other calves and unfortunately this cow, and her calf that we were pretty sure was already dead, was not at the top of the list. Should he have just shot her in the head while she was in labor so she wasn't in pain? I can't even being to decide if that would have been a better option. No one wants to have to make that decision. We did not have the expertise to handle her and we did not have anyone else to help us. The situation sucks. If you have helpful, encouraging suggestions about what we could do if we ever encounter this situation again, then I welcome the advice. If you have something mean and nasty to say about it, then please keep your comments to yourself. Please do not feel the need to punish us more for something we are already suffering over.

We are doing our best. That is all I can say. I am sorry if I upset you guys by asking for help. I will not make that mistake again. We will find other avenues to seek assistance in the future.

G. Seddon · #16 04/26/14, 05:08 PM

Under the circumstances, if you are determined to keep these cattle, I suggest that you get in touch with an experienced cattle person in your area and request their assistance in assessing the condition and health of your animals. Ask for some names at your local feed store or sale barn and give them a call. Who knows, they might even recommend a vet who can actually come see a sick animal (and take a blood sample) before guessing at a diagnosis and treatment over the phone. There is NO treatment for Johnes!

I also suggest that you invest in a couple of basic cattle care books and start reading; for less than $15 you can order a copy of Storey's Guide to Raising Beef Cattle by Heather Smith Thomas.

What people have written to you is not a personal attack, but it is severe criticism of the ways you've handled the situations you've described with your animals; you requested our advice and we've offered it, based on practical experience raising cattle. (Sorry, but no responsible person would let an animal in labor linger for 3 days.)

From what you describe, it sounds as if you have a real train wreck happening at your place. You might contact your state vet's office and ask for some guidance. If you don't have the means to provide for these animals, then I suggest that you sell the ones that are healthy and humanely destroy those that are not. None of this will be easy.

unregistered41671 · #17 04/26/14, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G. Seddon

Under the circumstances, if you are determined to keep these cattle, I suggest that you get in touch with an experienced cattle person in your area and request their assistance in assessing the condition and health of your animals. Ask for some names at your local feed store or sale barn and give them a call. Who knows, they might even recommend a vet who can actually come see a sick animal (and take a blood sample) before guessing at a diagnosis and treatment over the phone. There is NO treatment for Johnes!

I also suggest that you invest in a couple of basic cattle care books and start reading; for less than $15 you can order a copy of Storey's Guide to Raising Beef Cattle by Heather Smith Thomas.

What people have written to you is not a personal attack, but it is severe criticism of the ways you've handled the situations you've described with your animals; you requested our advice and we've offered it, based on practical experience raising cattle. (Sorry, but no responsible person would let an animal in labor linger for 3 days.)

From what you describe, it sounds as if you have a real train wreck happening at your place. You might contact your state vet's office and ask for some guidance. If you don't have the means to provide for these animals, then I suggest that you sell the ones that are healthy and humanely destroy those that are not. None of this will be easy.

GS.... Could not have said it better myself. ^^^^
To the Op, if the people in charge of looking at and managing these cattle has been doing it for 20 yrs. Another line of work or hobby might be in order.

idigbeets · #18 04/26/14, 07:25 PM

I do not think you are being attacked. People are surprised that you consider selling a sick animal at the sale barn, and called that a bad idea.

It is time to test the entire herd, and start culling. Also, test any surface waters your cattle come in contact with as the bacteria can shed and survive in water. Time to beef up (pun intended) your management practices, and to have a stern talking with your hired help of 20 years about how they are handling the cattle. It may be time to hire new people.... or be more responsible yourself and spend time with these animals.

I find it hard to believe there are no other farms with ruminants in your area.... where you can go for advice/mentor and get someone to come in and look over these cattle to guide you, even after they've been tested for Johnes.

tab · #19 04/26/14, 07:54 PM

One thing I have learned, cats, dogs horses, cows or pigs, etc. trouble always seems to come in clusters. It stinks. It is the way it is and it makes tough decisions sometimes more difficult. That does not alleviate the responsibility to make those decisions. Some of what you seem to perceive as attacks here is advice from people who have made those tough decisions. Sometimes what a person, especially an inexperienced person, perceives as caring is avoidance of a tough decision, gut wrenching decision. What i say to myself is too bad, if the animal is suffering my feelings will have to dealt with later. I have made mistakes and made some of my animals suffer, some with advice from vets. We aren't God so mistakes do get made BUT, there are things that I will never let happen again, even if it means I shoot the animal. You will find the advice might seem harsh but it is because it seems like a critter is suffering and that brings out some pretty strong and stern advice. Sometimes caring means a bullet or a needle. Heed it if you care. Culling generally means dispatching, especially with untreatable diseases.

If you are involved with people that do not care about their animals and are over ruling your decisions, you sound like you have problems that may not be fixable. I hope things look up for you. If you have johhnes to contend with, that in itself is enough to deal with but it sounds like that is only part of the problem. I wish you the best in what sounds like is only the beginning of many tough decisions.

wr · #20 04/27/14, 11:42 AM

It sounds like you have a good heart but truthfully, yes, the cow should have been shot in the head while in labour. It may be a tough job but it's our obligation to our livestock to prevent them from suffering.

Nobody is attacking you but as responsible stockmen, you honestly can't let animals suffer like that nor should you foist sick cattle on unsuspecting buyers.

Your partners are unlikely to change so perhaps you should either buy them out or find someone else to work with before these guys ruin your reputation in the cattle industry. A newbie will be forgiven for mistakes but these guys are leaving you with potential animal neglect charges.