Polled Dexter info

[M88A1]

If you have a naturaly polled dexter bull and he breeds a dexter cow will the calf be polled? Also is this considered a unpure dexter in the dexter world? Opinions?.....

[genebo]

Dexters were a all horned breed until Celtic type blood, Angus, was used to start some polled ones in England. One of them was imported to the US in the 1990's. All subsequent Dexters without horns descend from that one bull.

A polled Dexter may have either one or two genes for polled. Polledness is dominant, so you can't tell by looking which type one is. UC Davis offers a DNA test to tell.

Breeding a polled with both genes for polledness will always result in a calf that is polled, although it doesn't guarantee that the calf will be homozygous (both genes alike) for polled.

Breeding a polled with only one gene for polledness may produce a horned calf in some circumstances, polled in others. Only a DNA test of both parents can reveal the exact odds of each possibility.

The term "naturally polled" does not fit a polled Dexter, as the trait is an introduced trait, not natural.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
http://paradisedexters.com

[cowkeeper]

Originally Posted by genebo

The term "naturally polled" does not fit a polled Dexter, as the trait is an introduced trait, not natural.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
http://paradisedexters.com

'Naturally polled' is a description of a physical trait, not a political one. Polled Dexters are purebred and accepted by all Dexter Associations worldwide.ck

[~Tomboy~]

Originally Posted by cowkeeper

'Naturally polled' is a description of a physical trait, not a political one. Polled Dexters are purebred and accepted by all Dexter Associations worldwide.ck

I totally agree with cowkeepers comments.
I am a breeder of Polled Dexter Cattle only and run about 30 head.

On a side note I noticed that you are retired military, so are we. Living just outside of San Antonio. Great place for retirees, not so great sometimes for cattle due to the droughts we've been having. Best of luck to you and your new venture.

Barb

[genebo]

Originally Posted by cowkeeper

'Naturally polled' is a description of a physical trait, not a political one. Polled Dexters are purebred and accepted by all Dexter Associations worldwide.ck

Cowkeeper,

I wasn't referring to anything political. I was referring to the descriptive phrase used in the original question, "naturally polled".

Polled is a physical trait of some breeds of cattle. It is a phenotypical expression of th genetic condition wherein the bovine has one or less horned genes and therefore does not grow horns.

Naturally is a descriptive adjective that indicates that the object is as occurrs in nature or has occurred as a natural event. Polledness is not natural to Dexter cattle. It is a trait that was introduced by man, through breeding a polled breed to Dexters.

It's done all the time. If you breed a homozygous polled bovine to a horned bovine, the offspring will be polled. It's not natural, but it works.

Many breeds, such as Longhorns, Dexters, Shorthorns, Watusi, and the list goes on, are not naturally polled. Yet man can make any of them polled. Again, it's not natural, but it can be done.

Dexters are not naturally polled. They are naturally horned. They were naturally horned for all of their history prior to the introduction of polledness.

The test that UC Davis administers to determine polledness can distinguish between two different types of polled mutation which are found in cattle. The type that is found in The modern polled Dexters is of the Celtic variety, consistant with the records that show that an Angus provided the polled gene found in our US Dexters.

Read here for the history of polled Hereford cattle in the US:

http://www.cattle.com/articles/title...rd+Cattle.aspx

Then there is the misconception about the use of the term puyrebred when applied to cattle. Two terms are applicable. The first is fullblood, which means exactly what it sounds like. The other is purebred, which means that the animal is derived from crossbreeding, but has followed a course of selective re-breeding for long enough to be declared "close enough". Read how the American Lowline Registry uses the terms for a good understanding:

http://www.usa-lowline.org/howtoregister.html

Cattle that have not been through the entire requisite to be called purebred are often called "grade cattle". That is the system used to upgrade Dexter crossbreeds in England and Australia. There is no such program in the Americas. The rules of the US and Canadian Dexter Associations only permit registration of fullblood Dexter cattle. Having a bull that originated in England from outcrossed genetics was not permitted.

Paperwork was presented which declared the registrant to be fullblooded. By the time the true parentage was uncovered, it was too late to fix it. There were too many registrations and owners involved. The ADCA prints a blanket statement which absolves them of all blame, "All animals in the ADCA registry were entered in accordance with the regulations, procedures, and information that existed at the time of entry." The blame properly falls upon those who provided the information used for entry into the registry.

That last part is the political version. It may be disputed loudly, but the scientific facts first presented are not up for dispute. Polled is not a natural condition of Dexters. It is a man-made condition.

The North American Dexter associations were forced to accept the polled Dexters. To do otherwise would have been disastrous. The Australians were forced to accept that and much more, due to absolute import restrictions. The may not be a single fullblooded Dexter in Australia. So they accept what they can get. Wouldn't you?

It's still a matter of choice here in the US, as it is in Canada. We were once, just a short time ago, the stronghold of all fullblooded Dexters in the world. That erodes daily. The percentage of fullblooded Dexters falls steadily, as more and more people opt for the modern variants.

Don't get your feelings hurt so quickly. Your shoot-from-the-hip response to a simple answer turned my desire to help into a defense of my veracity. I gave a factual answer, you put the politics into it.

Check out the requirements for registration of Dexter cattle in South Africa, among other places where it is government regulated, so it is not easy to change it to suit modern tastes.

Genebo
Paradise Farm
http://paradisedexters.com

[~Tomboy~]

Originally Posted by genebo

Check out the requirements for registration of Dexter cattle in South Africa, among other places where it is government regulated, so it is not easy to change it to suit modern tastes.

Do you really want to bring this discussion here? It's bad enough in the Dexter world. Someone asked a fair question and "your beliefs" are interfering.

As far as South Africa is concerned. I believe they also have changed so that you can not sell or possibly register Chondrodysplasia bulls.
Added: Plus in some of the breeds you mentioned animals that carry a genetic defect are not allowed to even be registered. So a polled Dexter should be the least of his concerns.

Barb

[65284]

Gene is absolutely correct, crossbred bull semen, originally from England I believe, was used to introduce the polled gene into Dexters. The NADA got blindsided by this. They had a reciprocal agreement with the Canadian registry to accept each others registrations, and it was brought into Canada with what many at the time thought was dubious paperwork.

If you read the original post carefully you may notice the poster asked for OPINIONS!!! Gene gave an accurate, factual answer, no need for the Chondrodysplasia comment, which wasn't even a part of the Ops question.

And yes, it needs to be discussed here and everywhere, whether it coincides with "your beliefs" and agenda or not. We are quickly losing the true Dexter breed, and are poorer for it.

I have owned and bred Dexters for about 30 years. I was there and active in the NADA when this polled craze started, and it was all just too convenient. A magazine article sparked a lot of interest in the breed, and a lot of wannabe cattle owners declared, "gee I would buy some of those except for those horns".


And as always, where there’s a demand for something someone will supply what's demanded. So, lo and behold after all of those years of horned Dexters a polled bull suddenly appears. Purely coincidental no doubt.


Excellent, informative post Gene, but we are wasting our time, too many folks think they know it all and will never listen to anything or anyone else.

[~Tomboy~]

Well since the both of you seem to know what your talking about . Please tell me what the genetic makeup of the breed is from the start?

Then please tell me how it can be "proven" that there has "never" been any introgression in the Dexter breed in the last 60 plus years before parentage verification started here in the US. Can you also be specific on the Dexters that first came over on the boat to American? Were all registered? Proven by sire and dam?

So basically just because Dexters are horned doesn't prove there is no outcrossed genetics in them.

Originally Posted by 65284

we are wasting our time, too many folks think they know it all and will never listen to anything or anyone else.

Ah yes, I guess the same can be said about you. whoever you are.

[lakeportfarms]

Polled Dexters can have horns, and sometimes the eruption of the horns can come later than that of a horned Dexter. If you have horned Dexters yet wish to remove the horns, it is a relatively simple process to do so when the calf is less than a week or two old either through paste or the electric dehorner. The young calf is easy to handle at that age, the procedure is quick, the results at a young age are very good, and within a minute of the procedure the calf doesn't show any ill effects.

We have a herd of around 75 or more Dexters, most all of them horned or dehorned, but we do have a few polled ones. Right now we have an issue with a heifer that we checked for a couple of months and found no evidence of horns, but when we handled her at 6 months not only does she have horns but they are too large for the electric dehorner and it would be stressful for her at that age for the process of dehorning her if we choose to do so. She is out of my wife's favorite milker who is polled, and a horned bull.

So breeders of "polled" Dexters can misrepresent their status and give the impression that owners will get polled calves, when in fact it is entirely possible for a polled bull and a polled cow to produce a horned calf. If you are not ready or set up to de-horn if you don't want the horns, it can cause a bigger problem than if you are expecting horned and have made provisions for horn removal.

[~Tomboy~]

Hans, They might be scurs it is harder to tell in a heifer since they generally show up at a later age.

Barb

[lakeportfarms]

No they are full fledged horns, and it's going to require scooping or a Barnes to remove them. I would have preferred to do it a couple of months ago because it won't be long and fly season will be in full swing. From no evidence of them three months ago, we didn't even think to feel her head in the interim. They've grown substantially in just a short while, like they're making up for lost ground.

It's a lot more trouble and stress than the X50 electric dehorner with goat tip at 3 days of age like our horned calves that get dehorned.

[cowkeeper]

A breeder I know had a heifer they thought had no horns, both parents horned. They were just very slow growing and at over a year the horns could just barely be seen through her bangs and were as loose "as a loose tooth", so it is not only polled background animals that may have very slow growing horns. They had the polled test done to make sure they were not scurs.
The polled bull in question on this thread has a DNA profile consistent with other purebred Dexters. And he was in fact first imported into the US and accepted there, before Canada.
Rest assured that there are fullblood Dexters in Australia, not that that is relevant at all to the OP's question.ck

[G. Seddon]

lakeportfarms, I agree that if it's to be done, it's best to do it way before fly season and when they are very small.

But several years ago we had a 6-7 month old heifer break off one of her horns in the headgate when she bounced around too vigorously while objecting to her vaccinations. I couldn't believe it! The vet quickly numbed her head and removed it, along with the other one so she wouldn't be lopsided. I was convinced the heifer would never come up into the pen area after that, but the next day she was the first one in the pen for breakfast! No ill effects whatsoever.

A good vet can make all the difference!

[barnbilder]

First, I'm not into Dexters, but I have had cows a very long time. Naturally polled means you bred a bull to a cow and the calf doesn't have horns. The other version, or un-natural polling takes place when you use a hacksaw, end grinder, caustic paste, hot iron, rubber band, hedge trimmers, tire iron etc. to remove the animals horns. All of these methods are un-natural, as they would not be found in nature, some are more un-natural than others.

"Naturally" polled animals fall into one of two categories, homozygous and heterozygous. If a bull is homo polled, he will never throw a calf with a horn. Not even a late growing horn. If he is hetero polled, and he is bred to a homo polled cow, you will get all polled calves but 1/2 will be homo polled and 1/2 will be hetero polled. Same bull and a horned cow will give you 1/2 horns and 1/2 hetero polled calves. Homo polled to horns will give you 100% heterozygous polled calves. A cross between heterozygous animals will give you 25% horns 25% homozygous polled and 50% heterozygous polled calves. You don't have to send off a test, a test breeding will tell you what you have. If this concept is not known by a breeder I would seriously question their breeding program.

[lakeportfarms]

Originally Posted by barnbilder

First, I'm not into Dexters, but I have had cows a very long time. Naturally polled means you bred a bull to a cow and the calf doesn't have horns. The other version, or un-natural polling takes place when you use a hacksaw, end grinder, caustic paste, hot iron, rubber band, hedge trimmers, tire iron etc. to remove the animals horns. All of these methods are un-natural, as they would not be found in nature, some are more un-natural than others.

"Naturally" polled animals fall into one of two categories, homozygous and heterozygous. If a bull is homo polled, he will never throw a calf with a horn. Not even a late growing horn. If he is hetero polled, and he is bred to a homo polled cow, you will get all polled calves but 1/2 will be homo polled and 1/2 will be hetero polled. Same bull and a horned cow will give you 1/2 horns and 1/2 hetero polled calves. Homo polled to horns will give you 100% heterozygous polled calves. A cross between heterozygous animals will give you 25% horns 25% homozygous polled and 50% heterozygous polled calves. You don't have to send off a test, a test breeding will tell you what you have. If this concept is not known by a breeder I would seriously question their breeding program.

Barnbuilder, you're correct except for a couple of things. Calling a de-horned animal "polled" is confusing and can be misleading. They are a horned animal, with the horns removed. Not polled.

You will need more than a test breeding to determine if your animal is homo or heterozygous polled. Something along the lines of 5 or more breedings should give you an idea, but it is by no means confirmed at that point. For Dexters, tests have been developed to determine the horned status of the animal before the first calf hits the ground.

The story is that the Dexter had a "fresh mutation" that resulted in the polled gene. To think that very rare breed at the time with such few registered animals and calvings in a year would just miraculously happen to have a fresh mutation that satisfied the demand of some who wanted a Dexter without horns to increase their popularity, defies logic. Could it happen? I suppose, but the breeder of the polled Dexter would have been much more likely (and wealthy) to hit the Mega Millions lottery. The polled Dexter has no doubt increased the breeds popularity among many people and it's here to stay, but it has been at the expense of what is a traditional Dexter, in more ways than just the horns. There are many polled Dexters today, especially out of heavily polled lines, that hardly resemble the traditional horned Dexter phenotype of years ago.

[genebo]

The mutation story never had any proof behind it and was effectively disproved when the original English registration records were found, showing the Angus blood in that line.

The polled test that UC Davis uses can identify which of the two known polled genes exist in a bovine. Celtic type, or British breeds. and Friesian type, or Europeand breeds. Dexters have the Celtic type of polled genes, consistant with the Angus heritage.

Horns are an important part of a bovine's cooling system. They act as a radiator for excess body heat, complete with thermostatic control. A marvel of adaptation to differing climates.

The past 3 years have seen hard times for cattle in the central part of the US, with record high heat. That is the part of the country where the Longhorn cattle grew so well. The tragic photos of dead carcasses last year showed cattle without horns. Maybe that would have been enough to make a difference.

Stock handlers don't want horns on their cattle, and if that's your business, you are more or less forced to follow their wants. But if you are a small landholder in the hot zone with room for only a few cattle, traditional horned Dexters may be your best bet.

An additional benefit would be that you would be helping to preserve the genetics that made the breed. There is a lot of satisfaction to be had in doing that.

[~Tomboy~]

Originally Posted by lakeportfarms

There are many polled Dexters today, especially out of heavily polled lines, that hardly resemble the traditional horned Dexter phenotype of years ago.

So is Pardon Bullfinch considered a traditional horned Dexter? With most Dexters going back to his bloodlines. Has he been proven no outcrossed genetics in him? How much different do his offspring look? I’m sure in your opinion anything that’s not a dwarf looks different. Which they are because of the dwarfing gene and they can not breed true.
Quite honestly Hans I can’t believe you made this comment.

Originally Posted by genebo

Dexters have the Celtic type of polled genes, consistant with the Angus heritage.

Gene the Dexter breed is a Celtic breed. This does not necessarily mean that Dexters received the polled gene from angus. There were other polled breeds of cattle at that time.

Originally Posted by genebo

Horns are an important part of a bovine's cooling system. They act as a radiator for excess body heat, complete with thermostatic control. A marvel of adaptation to differing climates.

The past 3 years have seen hard times for cattle in the central part of the US, with record high heat. That is the part of the country where the Longhorn cattle grew so well. The tragic photos of dead carcasses last year showed cattle without horns. Maybe that would have been enough to make a difference.

Oh my Gene, maybe you should do some more research. Quit making comments that are not based on facts. Dead carcasses because they were polled??? Did you ever consider the drought? No you just want to lay blame on polled animals shame on you.
An interesting article about horns and cattle and Thermoregulation. The Dexter cattle breed is mentioned in it also disproving what Gene had mentioned. I have posted this before on the Dexter board, Gene wants to ignore it.
http://animalwelfareapproved.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/TAFS-11-Horns-and-Thermoregulation.pdf




Below is a crosspost from the Dexter Cattle board:

Godstone Esmeralda (DCS #F10531) is the source of the polled gene in Saltaire Platinum. She was born on May 5, 1984 and deceased on 12/31/2004, according to the online Dexter Cattle Society (DCS) online pedigree. Godstone Esmeralda is the fully registered offspring of a fully registered horned Dexter bull and a fully registered horned Dexter cow. The DCS continues to register her descendents and the offspring of her grandson, Saltaire Platinum.

Godstone Esmeralda's son, the sire of Saltaire Platinum, was Migh Poldark, and he was registered in the DCS main pedigree as a polled Dexter bull. Migh Poldark, was born on 4/28/1987, according to the DCS online pedigree. Migh Poldark's sire, Westfield Merlin, was a fully registered horned Dexter bull. The offspring of Migh Poldark, have been registered by the DCS from 3/20/1989 through 3/18/1992.

Migh Poldark's son, Saltaire Platinum, a heterozygous polled bull, was registered in the DCS main pedigree, as a polled Dexter bull. Saltaire Platinum's offspring have been registered by the DCS since 8/17/1992 and the latest registration was made for a calf born on 7/28/2008. In the United States, the offspring for Saltaire Platinum have been registered with the ADCA since 1994.

Every internationally recognized Dexter cattle registry in the world accepts polled Dexter cattle from a pedigreed Dexter sire and a pedigreed Dexter dam for purebred registration.

Thus, the Dexter breed includes both horned and polled animals. In 2011, this is the way it is. Every breeder has the choice to breed horned or polled, red, black, or dun, Chondro-carrier or Chondro-free, PHA-carrier or PHA-free, A1 Beta Casein or A2 Beta Casein, and a multitude of other variables.

The emotional "pleas" and "spin doctored words" to the contrary are simply not based on the facts, they are just opinions or preferences. The Dexter breed is not being "ruined", it is adapting. In order to survive, a breed must adapt. The Dexter breed is a "survivor" breed and it has the genetic diversity to adapt, survive, and thrive.

The only "constant" in life is change. Life is always changing, and to survive and thrive, a cattle breed must adapt and it must perform, and it must meet the needs of its owners and breeders. There are no exceptions to this requirement. Thankfully, so far, the Dexter cattle breed (horned and polled) meets and exceeds these requirements.

Patti

Read more: http://dextercattle.proboards.com/thread/1518/benefits-polled-genetics?page=3#ixzz2yXOmWya2



Now can we move on to more production cattle information.
Barb

[G. Seddon]

I'd like to suggest that this polled/dehorned/horned Dexter discussion stay on The Dexter Proboards and off of this board. It will never be resolved to everyone's satisfaction, so leave it be PLEASE!

[M88A1]

ALCON,

I'm sorry to have caused a dust-up on here, that wasnt my intent. For back ground we have a few dexters all horned. Our oldest cow can be a little spirted when we put out new hay or feed, she will throw her head around and can smack you with a horn. She's never charged or hurt anyone, but its intimidating for my wife. Our other 2 young cows are alot more tame can brush and scratch them. So we ended up pulling the trigger on a Polled bull, that him in the photo 7 months old. I thank everyone for advice, information and experience. Being in the Army for 22 years my family has started late with having a hobby farm so i greatly respect and admire those with the time to pass on skills and knowledge to others. With this site it can be passed on and not lost. So please lets all respect others levels of knowledge, you can always send me a private message if needed.

Greg

[cowkeeper]

Nice pic of the bull calf! Re the hay feeding, all cows get excited when new hay arrives. It can be risky to carry hay through them, as in their excitement they like to break it apart with their heads and could inadvertently push you over. Sometimes they will roll in the fresh hay, jump up and roll again!
Put a few flakes or some other treat to keep them busy while you put the rest out unmolested. Enjoy your Dexters! ck