American and Irish Type Cattle

[Annoth]

Anyone ever seen how the British breed their cattle? Really long, and massive bulging plates but not too much depth or volume to the main bodies. They look strange to me as an American market steer exhibitor but it gave me an idea for a cross.

Some of these bulls have straws that can come to the US and my vet does AI. I want to hear some opinions about taking a very nice "American" type heifer and breed it with those "Irish" type bulls? The link for the bulls, those are the ones I really want to get except for Diesel (that hip slope :/ ) But for any bull I may be able to get from the UK, that's how they look. I'm hoping the American type will tone down the bulging plates & hip sloping then add volume to the body. Then the bull will provide it's length, width & clean front. I'm an exhibitor not a breeder so I'm bringing my dreamy hopes with me! What do you think this blend could do? The livestock shows now a days want length & desirable fat but it only helps tremendously to have a clean dewlap and brisket, and a wide front & rear.


Also look at this calf http://www.freewebs.com/bigbenbazada...o%20heifer.JPG is it just me or does it look a little strange?

[Wanda]

Look at there beef grading standards and it will tell the story. They raise strictly for red meat (muscle) yield. They produce a lot of there beef from dairy based cows bred to bulls like you listed. Continental type beef is what you are seeing not Irish or Britis


Edited to add that the calf is expressing double muscling which will get a severe dock in price with our system of grading. Check out the Belgian Blue for a double muscle breed used on dairy cows for calves fed for slaughter.

[Karin L]

If you want to look at "American-type" cattle just hope on over to CattleToday.com Q&A forums and look at the pics posted on there. The cattle you'll see on there will be in their "working clothes," not all dolled up and fancy like that blonde heifer you showed in your first link. If you want to see good quality cattle, IMHO the best way is when they're not dressed up for show.

Now, I'm confused here. Are you, Annoth, looking for cattle to breed for show or are you just interested in breeding cattle just to sale for commercial and/or show use?

All those bulls that are listed as "Irish" type cattle are, as Wanda said, continentals. They are in no way British-breed cattle. If you want British breeds, look for Angus, Red Angus, Shorthorn or Hereford. The American/Canadian lines of Continental cattle are more rugged and albeit "rough" looking than those bulls you posted about, because they're meant to be out roughing it, not pampered and waited on like those on the N.I. link. However, especially with Angus, you will get various variations and discrepancies between bulls and cows due to the various genetics and blood lines available. So just be careful in what you're looking for. Herefords may take a hit in more ways than one (and some look worse than others), but if you're looking for a good commercial cow to start with, Herefords are the best. Put an Angus bull with them and you're set. (BTW, the Canadian Herefords often are better looking than the American ones. Many still have the old Hereford look to them, not the real red-necked ones like that which seems to get more common down south of the 49th parallel. Also, the British/Irish Herefords have more continental influence (with Limmi and Simm thrown in) than the ones here at home in the US and Canada.)

With that cross, though, if you ask me, you might be looking at a bit of pampering to do. JMHO, but for the kind of operation I have in mind where the cows need to actually work for a living and not laze around in a straw bed all day, I'd rather go with a solid, non-show-type commercial heifer (the red-factor Char heifer here is just too blossomed up [with a little bit of photo-shop done to enhance her looks] for me to see her real quality as a sound heifer: not liking the 2D effect on the shoulder and heart girth area) crossed to a good bull that can throw calves suitable for raising on forage, not show.

And yes, the last link shows a double-muscled heifer. I wouldn't be surprised if the bulls in the N.I link are exhibiting a bit of DM either, especially the Belgian Blue (Alibaba) and possibly the two Limmi bulls. Double muscling can happen in any beef breed if the genetics are right, not just in Belgian blues and Piedmontese.

Those are all just my thoughts and opinions.

[Annoth]

Yes I'm looking to get some calves out of a show ready heifer (like that blonde) and show a pair until the calf can be on it's own and use it for more shows as well (heifer calf I may sell or let a family friend use with his other cattle until I have my own place for her but a bull calf will be steered and taken to one of market shows). I didnt mean breed when I said type. They look different than what is here so I just broke them up into.... well, you could say "groups / types" I'm in Future Farmers of America for a reason: to learn. Mistakes were made :3 I see your point Karen. If heifers didnt need all that fancy hair stuff done, I'd show them too. Market animals though: build up all the muscles I can, put some fat on, shear everything off, show them, sell it, done.

But by combining those traits of the heifers we have here and the bulls they have there, I'm just curious to see the outcome since they look so different but both have amazing traits that the opposite lack. But I cant really try because I dont own land! Lucky enough to have my own steer even let alone a breeding type.

Another curiosity: Why does double muscling make it less valuable? Whouldnt that mean more meat per animal if it has 2 of every muscle?

[Karin L]

The problem with breeding "show-ready" heifers is that they often have too much fat on them to be of any breeding quality. They don't produce milk as well as the non-showy heifers, and can have calving difficulties too. Though I can't say what the calf will be like when it pops out, but I'm betting it wouldn't be as thrifty as one from a heifer that you started working on for show (minus the halter training of course) after the calf was born. You'll have to check with your local organization with rules and regulations for showing pairs. I can tell you something though: the pairs that get shown up here aren't as fluffed out and pampered-looking as that heifer. They are dolled up a bit, but their conformation is of greater importance than trying to make them look nice. The local farm show I was at this summer (I'm in Canada so there's no FFA up here, just 4H and beef shows were ranching families can show off their prized cows, calves and bulls) had some really nice looking Angus, Red Angus and Simmental pairs. I think, if I remember right, a solid red Simmental cow-calf pair got first prize in that ring. And that was a darn good-looking pair!! Calf was a bull, I believe.

I'm not too knowledgeable about showing cattle, so someone else may be able to pop on to help you. (Though, there may be more that can help you on that other forum I mentioned for you to check out.)

Now, to your questions about double muscling:

1) It's the level of fat or marbling in the beef. Producers in North America like more marbling and therefore more fat content in the beef. Lean beef tends to get graded lower, regardless if the dressing percentage is much higher than with the "regular" beef animals. I read that a Belgian blue steer, raised here on Canadian soil, dressed out at around 67%, whereas the average Angus or Charolais steer had a dressage percent of around 50 to 53%, respectively. But it's all about the fat, the internal fat in the meat that is what gets the Prime or AAA grade. Usually or generally, the better the cuts are marbled, the better the grade will be.

2) That is a common misconception about double muscling (though yes, it would, but allow me to continue). Double muscling doesn't mean that an animal has two of every muscle, it just means that there's more muscle mass to a single muscle fibre than normal. It is a genetic defect or mutation that renders the myostatin gene--the gene that controls the growth of muscle fibre and tissue--inactive or disabled so that an animal can grow or "build" more muscle than normal. Many folks think that it's steroids or growth hormone implants that cause this or that cows "work out at the gym", but it's absolutely none of that (I'm pretty sure you can figure out that the latter is definitely not true!!), it's all about genetics. Many, many Belgian blues and Piedmontese can have double muscling and never get injected with growth hormone-stimulant implants in their entire lives and they still get so heavily muscled they can barely walk. You get that with the European BB's, but not so much with the North American BB's. So when you think "double muscling," the term "myostatin" should immediately come to mind.