Forced vs. Natural Weaning

redgate · #1 01/04/14, 04:30 PM

I found out today my cow was accidentally bred BEFORE we purchased her, and I have to figure out what to do with her steer calf. The due date is unknown, though as of today, she is producing clear discharge and looks like her belly is ready to explode. Her 10 month old calf still nurses. The seller remembered a breech in his system that means she could have been bred as early as a month after the last calf was born. Thus, she could technically deliver anytime. What are the chances she will wean naturally? I would like to have the advantage of of seeing her bag up, but with a calf already nursing (and a big boy at that!), I'm not confident of that happening. Will she likely wean at the last minute to reserve her colostrum for the calf, or will she allow her current calf to stay close by? What about after the new calf is born? Is there any way to know? The previous seller is a much bigger rancher than I, so he has all sorts of pens for weaning and separating, and thus has no idea what she would do if given the choice. FTR, she is an experienced mother, and this will be her fourth or fifth calf.

G. Seddon · #2 01/04/14, 04:54 PM

Others' opinions may differ, but a 10-month old calf should be weaned NOW! The cow is NOT going to think "Gee, I'm having another calf any day now and I'd better kick Junior off!" Separate that boy from his mother and provide him with some calf starter and good hay...he may think he needs milk, but he doesn't. The cow's colostrum belongs to her new calf.

redgate · #3 01/04/14, 05:32 PM

Oh, I know he doesn't NEED the milk. I also knew it didn't hurt him anyway, and since we are butchering earlier than the norm, I figured I'd take advantage of the extra calories. Mom's condition held out fine. We are just a small homestead and don't have a lot of extra pens. We planned our breeding so I could separate them into the extra pen for about 2 months and then ship them off to the butcher. In the mean time, though, that extra pen is being used by other critters for a winter lot. I didn't count on a new calf NOW, in the middle of winter. I'm trying to think of the potential $$ that the calf could possibly bring in the right market (seller is going to help me out there) to make all this trouble worth while.

MO_cows · #4 01/04/14, 05:40 PM

Some cows will wean their calves, others don't. You have one that don't. Separate the 10 month old, put a blab in his nose if you can't physically separate him. The new calf needs the colostrum, it's a matter of life and death.

wr · #5 01/04/14, 05:50 PM

Even if the cow does wean the calf, you run a risk of the lager calf sneaking in to feed and pushing the new calf away resulting in your new calf being under nourished or flat out starved.

redgate · #6 01/04/14, 07:43 PM

Looks like the beef steer will be joining our milk goat herd tomorrow. The dairy goats and our jersey heifer are using the separate pen for the winter. He will be getting the pampered barn treatment for the next few months I guess. Is there a point when it is considered safe to return him to the beef herd? I'm not sure his dam will dry off at this point, but what about after the new calf is born?

CIW · #7 01/05/14, 12:06 PM

You may find that he will develop a taste for goats milk if one of those girls will let him suck.
Calves that are weaned late often become milk thieves their entire life. I wouldn't count on ever being able to put him back with the cows.

redgate · #8 01/05/14, 01:11 PM

I think we're OK there. Those goats won't let the cows near those udders for all the grain in the world! I'm not confident that will be the case with our jersey after she freshens though. Guess we'll play that by ear. Clearly we have some fence construction projects slated for the next year to prepare for such issues! For now, though, the steer calf is not sure what to think of his new housing arrangements. He stands in the snow, at the back of the pen, looking longingly at his mom. She, on the other hand, couldn't seem to care less. Interesting, since last time I tried to wean, there was the normal bawl fest from both moms and calves. This time, neither has made a sound. Her udder didn't swell up at all overnight either, so he clearly wasn't nursing much.

MO_cows · #9 01/05/14, 02:45 PM

8 weeks of separation to break the sucking habit will usually do it. By then the cow will probably kick him off anyway and be dry. But sometimes they are big babies and real persistent and the cow just sighs and lets them suck. Watch when the new calf comes, that he doesn't sneak in from behind and steal milk when the new calf is nursing.

haypoint · #10 01/05/14, 05:27 PM

Everyone has different priorities, management levels and facilities. That makes for many different choices.
If you are inexperienced in raising a newborn calf, faced with limited facilities, no place for the yearling, calf not expected, you could always just knock the new calf in the head at birth. I don't know what the odds are that you could raise this calf, nor do I know if the cow will have the needed colostrum, when the calf needs it. Right now it is near zero temperature. I don't know how warm your barn is or your experience level.
Bad experiences are often good opportunities to learn. Letting a calf nurse for 10 months was a poor choice, IMHO. Bad choices that lead to bad outcomes becomes a lesson well learned. Not knowing that your cow is 8+ months along, caused this latest drama. I doubt you'll make such a mistake again. It is all a huge learning session.
What was your management plan for rebreeding the cow? Why wait a year? You mention "forced vs natural" like weaning a calf is a bad thing. Humans have been in the animal husbandry business for many thousands of years. Cowboys and shepherds do more than herd and eat beans.
How long should a human nurse? Some will allow it until they attend school, others until they form teeth. Generally, for most mammals, weaning is forced.

redgate · #11 01/05/14, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haypoint

Everyone has different priorities, management levels and facilities. That makes for many different choices.
If you are inexperienced in raising a newborn calf, faced with limited facilities, no place for the yearling, calf not expected, you could always just knock the new calf in the head at birth. I don't know what the odds are that you could raise this calf, nor do I know if the cow will have the needed colostrum, when the calf needs it. Right now it is near zero temperature. I don't know how warm your barn is or your experience level.
Bad experiences are often good opportunities to learn. Letting a calf nurse for 10 months was a poor choice, IMHO. Bad choices that lead to bad outcomes becomes a lesson well learned. Not knowing that your cow is 8+ months along, caused this latest drama. I doubt you'll make such a mistake again. It is all a huge learning session.
What was your management plan for rebreeding the cow? Why wait a year? You mention "forced vs natural" like weaning a calf is a bad thing. Humans have been in the animal husbandry business for many thousands of years. Cowboys and shepherds do more than herd and eat beans.
How long should a human nurse? Some will allow it until they attend school, others until they form teeth. Generally, for most mammals, weaning is forced.

We bought 2 cows back in June, with 2 month old calves on their side, and as part of the deal, I got to breed back to a Lowline bull. I chose to do that in July, so 2014 calves would be born in the spring. The bull came, and although he showed interest in this cow, I just never observed her get bred like I did the other 2. She started gaining "weight" in the fall, which I noted, but she is the dominant cow, and we started haying thanks to drought in late summer. I just figured she got more food than the others. This week is when I realized that was no "fat" belly. So I called the breeder to discover the "oops" soon after she calved was a possibility. In this case, I am just glad I was observant enough to figure it out before I had a calf born in the snow!

Because the plan was for the cows to calve again in the spring, I was experimenting with the natural weaning just to see if they would do it or not. I know of several farmers who cull in favor of this trait, so they don't have to worry about weaning. Again, because they were bred to deliver in spring, I would've had my extra pen available since they dairy herd was going to be back on pasture by then. Apparently my girls won't wean naturally, and now I know, and it's only the unexpected breeding prior to purchase that threw a kink in my pen plan.

I have no problem with separating a calf from the cow. By "forced" I simply meant physically separating them to force weaning, vs. letting nature take it's course like some farmers I know do with great success. I do both with our dairy goats, depending on the need for milk at the time. We try to go natural as much as we can, but I also realize that sometimes human choices have made that impossible. For example, my small beef herd has no problem out there in the frigid temps, blowing snow, and nasty weather. While they do have a shelter in the winter pen, they have spent most of the day standing around the hay feeder instead. My jersey girl on the other hand, wouldn't stand a chance out there. She has no extra insulation via fur or fat, so I barn her with the dairy girls. Obviously, that is a consequence of years of breeding for dairy traits. Hope that makes sense and clears things up.

haypoint · #12 01/05/14, 07:53 PM

That explains a lot. Without that explanation from you and the fact that I'd never heard of a self-weaning cow, I might have thought you didn't know what you were doing. I think I've got it straight now.
When my neighbors, each over a mile away, separate their calves from the cows, I can hear it. No self-weaning at either place.

Azriel · #13 01/05/14, 08:24 PM

I let my cows self wean. They are all beef cows at this point, and I have seldom had one let the calf suck after it was about 7 months. The only time that happened was when the cow was bred late and even then the calves were weaned no later than 3 months before the new calf was due. Much less stress on the calves and cows.
I would have her palpated to see size/age of the unborn calf, she could get really big with her 4th or 5th calf and still not be due till spring. That would save you a lot of worring about having a calf in the snow. Oh, if she is not bagging up fast now that the older calf is off of her, she is most likley not due real soon.
I had one last year that got huge with her 4th calf, I knew her due date as she was bred AI, I thought she had to be having twins, she had a little 60# calf 6 days after her due date.

redgate · #14 01/05/14, 09:20 PM

The breeder told me the earliest she could have been bred would have been the first week of April, and the latest would have been the early June. I first looked at her in mid-June, and she was separated with other cow/calf pairs at that point, then she was delivered to me shortly thereafter. The breeder also said his Lowlines almost always deliver 5-7 days earlier than the "norm" due date given. That puts delivery anytime between this week and early March. So, she has to pop sometime in the next 6 weeks, and the breeder felt earlier was more likely than later, based on the other cows that were intentionally bred at the same time. Both my cows are the same age, and have had the same number of calves. I know they can be individuals, but this black cow LOOKS preggo even to the inexperienced eye (visitors have asked). She looks like a ball walking around on stick legs. She grunts, groans, and acts like moving has become a chore. I'll have to get a photo and see what you think. Unfortunately, I worked in the vet industry long enough, I just don't trust the due dates offered based on palpation. Too many wrong ones, which doesn't help me anyway. I'd rather keep that calf away and watch for the physical signs. I trust those more.