Cattle folks - do you use dogs on your cows?

[StockDogLovr]

I am in a debate with some working Aussie folks about the preferred style of work on cattle operations, so I thought I would ask here:

1. Do you use dogs to help you manage your cattle?
2. If so, what breed do you use and why?
3. What type of work do you find most helpful? Driving, gathering, pen work, pasture work, etc.
4. What, if any, training did you do with your dog to make it more useful?

Anything else you want to add would be helpful.

I, myself, got into the working Aussie as a hobby before actually needing one on a farm/ranch. Trained for stockdog trials. Now we have 40 acres and I finally got to pursue my dream of having cattle along with the sheep. We only had enough graze to support five head from spring until now (I am supplementing hay now) since we are in arid CA. We don't have cross fencing so all the livestock, including two horses, are out in the pasture together. Aside from training, I use my dog to gather the sheep and cows to bring into the arena where I can give them their specific feed that I don't want the horses to get. I also use my dog to load the trailer since we don't have alleyways built to load, and I only have my little stock trailer anyway!

My boy prefers to fetch and will default to that if I don't remind him we're driving. He will bite heads no problem but lost the desire to heel grip early on, which I find problematic when the cows are bunched/stopped and need to be pushed out rather than headed to get them moving. Oh well, hopefully the next dog will have it!

[Wanda]

The cattle have to be trained not to attack the dog! With our cattle a dog in there midst caused them all to pursue the dog which always goes to the human for help. For the average cattle person I can not think of any reason to keep a trained cattle dog. The few times a year that they could help would not be enough of a ''job'' to keep them out of trouble.

[gone-a-milkin]

I am milking on a 100 head grass-based dairy and we use a
femle border collie to get the cows up twice a day everyday.

She is fairly light in her style compared to a lot of 'cow' dogs,
but she will bloody a nose if she has to.
And she never foregts if a cow has been naughty in the past.
She holds a grudge.

A good dog will save a lot of work for its handler.

[Allen W]

I don't have a cow dog right now, I had a English Shepard and she done a good job especially watching your back for you. Really need a short haired dog for here in the summer time.

I've been thinking about getting a Black Mouth Cur for working cattle and hunting hogs and keeping watch at night.

[Jennifer L.]

I used Border Collies when I had milkers. Gone a milking is right, they remember specific cows who do them dirt!

[StockDogLovr]

Originally Posted by Wanda

The cattle have to be trained not to attack the dog! With our cattle a dog in there midst caused them all to pursue the dog which always goes to the human for help. For the average cattle person I can not think of any reason to keep a trained cattle dog. The few times a year that they could help would not be enough of a ''job'' to keep them out of trouble.

Actually, a dog with cow savvy will train those cows. Otherwise, I'm sure if they never see a dog they will go on the offense when presented with one :-) Cows are really good at reading when a dog is weak and will chase it off - that is a useless dog in a cow operation, for sure!

[CIW]

We grew up with Border Collies around. In the 80's I imported a male and female from Beryl and Glyn Jones over in Wales. We still have the desendants of those dogs.
A man on a mule and 2 or 3 dogs can handle several hundred cow calf pairs.
Whenever I have a young dog that I am working I put an experienced dog with them. One that has a little bite in him will rev that young dog up to where nothing that challenges him is going to get by.
I have always moved the cattle for the local association otherwise they can't get them out of the brush until the snow pushes them down to the drift fence at the bottom of the canyon. Then they are trespass paying fines to the BLM.
The biggest reason that I like having a dog around is to help me sort in the pens.
I have a little female that I swear has five legs. The fifth being her belly. It's so funny to watch her crawl. Kind of reminds me of watching a high centered turtle.
It's sure fun to have a partner up on the wagon when we feed to.
Wanda, If you ever get a chance to be around range cattle you'll see how much a good dog is worth or how worthless a bad one is.
Papa said that cows and dogs were the reason he never carried a pistol.

[randiliana]

We have dogs too. At the moment, we have a Kelpie and a Heeler/Australian Shepherd cross. They are both driving dogs although the Kelpie like to go to the head as well. Didn't have to do a lot of training, as they have the instinct to do what I want. Both were 'city' dogs that I got around 1 1/2 years of age. And had already gone through basic obedience training. The only thing I really taught them was 'OUT' and 'Get Around Em' .

We use them for gathering and driving the cattle from pasture to pasture (or into the corral) and in the winter for feeding. To chase the calves out of the pen where we grain them so we can pail the grain out without fighting them off. And to keep the cattle away from the bale while we are cutting strings off before unrolling it.

As far as cows chasing the dogs, I find that in our herd there are cows that 'play the game'. They hang at the back of the herd whenever you are moving them (usually only when they have a calf) and harass the dogs. It is always the same cows, and it doesn't matter whether the calves are babies or 600 lbs. But our dogs would never come hide behind me for safety.

We don't use the dogs in the corral, unless we have something that is on the fight and it isn't safe for us to be in the corral. And we don't use them around calving cows or cows with brand new babies. That's just asking for trouble, either you get hurt, the dog gets hurt or the calves get hurt when mama goes over top of them to get the dog.

We've had the Kelpie for about 8-9 years and up til the last year or so, he never would even look at a calf. Sometimes that would be a problem because he would get ahead of the calves. One of the things I really appreciated him for was the herd 'quitters'. You'd just have to get him out to the side of the herd, focus his attention on the one leaving the herd and tell him to 'Git Around Her' and he'd do the job, saved me a lot of miles and after a couple of go arounds the quitters would usually stay with the herd.

[mrs whodunit]

I work for a guy who has a 100+/- pairs.

No horses, or dogs are used.

Most of the time we just use a bale of alfalfa. Sometimes we use a 4 wheeler but that is very rare, we use the bale of alfalfa on the 4-wheeler.

[oregon woodsmok]

Cow dogs are for when you own a stockyard or 5000 acres.

For 40 acres, just whistle the cows in once a day for feed and get a sturdy mixing tub and catch gate. If you work those cows slowly and calmly, they will be more pleasant to deal with.

[COWS]

If I've posted this story before forgive me. Had a 600 pound bull calf to sell, loaded him with no problem. Got to sale 40 miles away and he was TIRED of the trailer, butted the sides of the trailer at the men unloading him. They got him in the chute and checked him in, then turned him into a long wide alley with sorting pens along it. There was a small cattle dog on a catwalk beside thew chutes with steps leading down to the alley level, dog went down into the alley and chased/barked at the bull. You could see the lightbulb go on in the bulls head. He decided he had been chased around by men and couldn't do anything about it but decided he didn't have to put up with the dog. He turned on a dime and went after the dog with head down. Dog ran back up the steps and sat down and kept his mouth shut.

COWS

[StockDogLovr]

If calves can learn to turn off a dog when they are smaller, then they will forever be easily moved by dogs no matter what size. Fractious larger cattle that are already stressed will run through the dog and learn they don't have to respect dogs; likewise, the dog realizes he'd be stupid to throw himself down in front of a freight train! Recently I helped a rancher dog break some stocker heifers, around 400 lb'rs, before they got turned out onto pasture so that when the time came to move them it would go more easily with dogs. I'm sure heifers that are dog broke before being bred would also be easier to deal with by dog once they have a calf, though even my ewes will stand up to the dog with brand new lambs by their side. My dog is super gentle with lambs and maybe the same can be true with calves - they seem to realize they are babies and are more careful with them.

[StockDogLovr]

Oh, I don't "need" my dog to move my stock on our 40 - but I love to find ways to work him because to me it is such a thing of beauty to see a working dog's instincts at work, and they love feeling they have a purpose! And my cows are so gentle to me because I do supplement with grain and hay, plus when we dog broke them I never bossed them or mistreated them myself, stayed calm, moved in a way that made sense to them a la Bud Williams stockmanship.

[Yvonne's hubby]

I only have a few head of cattle, but in the winter months I have to feed them a roll of hay every few days. Our little blue healer beagle mix is quite handy about keeping them away from the gate as I take the tractor through. He is also bad news for a stray dog or coyote that wanders onto the property. I havent "taught" him anything... he just seems to know what is needed and does it.

[cowbelle]

A good (and trained) dog and trained stock are a joy to work with - several of you have said it well. The argument that feed is a better way to go falls short when the temps are over 100 and the cattle, shaded up, say "Nah, I don't think I'm that hungry". - but the trucks are coming and you need them in the pen, now! Some years ago, when I was deeply involved with the stockdog community, I leased my field to a neighbor to graze his replacement heifers - about 30 of them. The deal was that I could work my dogs (Kelpies) on them. For a month or so, every few days, I'd go out with the 2, calm older dogs, Let them gather the girls, take them up to a corner gate, through it at a walk, through another pasture and into the corral. Then I'd leave the gate open, leave, and let them filter back out on their own. This was all done with the dogs fetching the cattle to me - I just walked over to the gate.

One Sunday afternoon, a bull that looked like a Mexican fighting bull turned up on one of the fencelines. My grandson ran in saying that the bull had jumped the fence. I immediately called the owner of the heifers, lived about 5 miles away. He said he'd be right down. In the meantime, I went out with the dogs, brought them all (bull didn't know quite what was going on, but he did want to stay with the girls) to the corral, and had them penned before he could get here. Filtered the heifers back out (all at a walk) and kept the bull for transport. It went so smoothly and with no stress on any stock, due to them being " trained" to go to the corral. It was no biggie - they'd done it many times with no negatives associated with being corraled. That one event convinced more of my neighbors that good dogs were worth having than any talking I could do. And they're fun to work with!!

Comments - seldom will a dog bite both ends, they tend to have favorites, and no training changes it.

Teaching cattle to be fetched can take some time if they've always been driven. However, many cattle drives have a rider out ahead - the cattle can get used to you on foot (or on an ATV or whatever) ahead if you are leading away. The dogs have you to focus on and work stronger knowing what direction they are to move the stock. The teaching can be done on small numbers at a time of the herd in a corral situation, but of course you have to have a dog strong enough and intense enough to stop an animal, and then let it alone when it turns away from him. You have to be able to stop the pup as soon as the cow turns from him! That's what trains the cow - turning away from this dog makes him let my nose alone. Guess I'll go this way.

Not every pup, no matter what his breeding or price paid for him, will be a good dog - we have to be able to admit that one just doesn't have it. The comment about the dog coming to the person - once was gathering a huge open pasture with other riders. I could see a fellow about a half mile away from me with his 2 BC's. He was a cutting horse trainer, just along to put some miles on his colts - didn't work much with the dogs. We were gathering cows with calves, and his out of control dogs got to harrassing a couple of cows who turned and charged them. Dogs ran for the owner, got clear under the colt who promptly bucked him off. He didn't say much when he got in to the corrals with grass stains all over his back!

So if you appreciate what help a good dog can be, enjoy using them. If you prefer chumming, do that.

[arcticow]

And sometimes, having a dog that is hard only on bulls can be a lifesaver. When things get ugly, a hard biting , shoulder chewing dog can change a mean bull's mind. Then they are priceless!

[montysky]

Nope no cattle dogs but I do work them on horse back.

[opportunity]

We have horses that are trained to help us get the cows and I'm working with my corgi pup he is starting to be helpful in moving them and only seems to be picking on two of the cows not sure why but he likes to go bark at them and move them around.

[CIW]

Many times when a dog barks alot it's because they aren't sure about what they are trying to do. I see it alot when pups are first being started.
When the dogs are working quiet I know that things are going well.
Thats when you need to go help the pup if you don't have another dog to back him up.

[SteveO]

Sorry 25 head and I use a bucket full or empty. They will follow any time
steve