Building pasture from day one.

[biggkidd]

Hi All,

I'm starting to try and build a pasture for rotational grazing. I started out with all woods. So far I have had three acres timbered and cleared. I hope to have 15-20 acres total out of the 36 I own. But there are still a LOT of stumps I need to get rid of. I went ahead and had a soil test done, got the results back today. Here is a pic of what I am working with right now.



I don't know how to get the PDF file to post or I would share the results. Also set up a meeting with the local co op extension agent for this monday. Soil test was about what I expected maybe a little better. Need 2.5 tons of lime per acre 40lbs. N 160lbs P205 120lbs K20 per acre. Did notice that we have high amounts of calcium and very high Mg. PH was 5.4 and low salts. Low in organic materials too at 2.2%. Not sure what all this means but hope the AG agent can explain monday. I also checked with the local Southern States & they quoted AG lime for $40 per ton if I pick it up. One of the things I want to talk with the ext. agent monday is using chicken litter and other natural fertilizers instead of chemicals.
This is my start into farming so much I don't know. Thinking there are probably others who also want to build their own pastures I thought I would post our whole process. If I get lucky some who have been there and done it will offer pointers.

Thanks
Larry
A World Away

[Copperhead]

The best and cheapest way to build soil fertility, is to lease your land to a neighbor who will feed hay to cattle on the land over the winter. Since you are converting from forest, the hay will provide an awesome seed bank as well as improving carbon and nitrogen.

Another option, if you're not in a big hurry to have a hayfield, is to fence the area with 6 strands of high-tensile electric and add goats and pigs. Now I'd practice small scale first, to learn what it takes to restrain both goats and pigs . . .

Speaking of hayfield, if you just need pasture, cut the stumps as low as you dare and leave them alone. They will eventually rot out, especially if you have pigs, but only meadow (hayfield) needs to be stumped with expensive equipment.

[G. Seddon]

Larry, we started a couple of pastures this some years ago; it took a while to establish. A drought forced us to reseed the entire thing!

Good that you got soil tests. Lime is good to do (just had it done here on some pastures; the $40/ton included delivery and spreading but maybe because I'm not far from them?). Chemical fertilizer is very expensive. We used poultry litter and that really gave things a jump start. It helps to apply that just before it rains cause the odor is incredibly strong! The only problem, other than odor, is finding chicken bones and feathers in the pasture.

The extension agent should be valuable. You might also contact NRCS office in your area too; they'll come out and give you good guidance free of charge (not sure if they're affected by the govt. shutdown???).

Oh, you'll want to leave some shade trees in there for your cattle!

Good start!

[biggkidd]

Thanks Guys,
We had a couple goats when my ex was still here. Major fence pain. Might try them again one day though. Pigs will come later. I may not have to get the stumps up but I do want them up. If something happens to me and the kids want to sell it will be a lot easier. No one close runs cattle. One good thing is we do have water rights to a big creek that runs one corner of the land. I did tell the timber people I wanted to leave a couple smaller White Oaks on each acre. Still waiting for them to get back to me with prices.

One other thing I'm still not sure what breed of cattle I want to have. Have sort of narrowed it down to Dexter and black angus. Seriously considering a large polled Black Dexter bull and small black angus cows. I haven't spent much time around livestock so the more friendly Dexters are appealing. No horns are too! My goal here is to supply us with good beef and to sell enough each year to add a small income or at the minimum to pay its own way. I probably can find buyers for the beef as sides or wholes going through family in the city.

Planning to graze year round if possible so this is a weird question. How many acres of corn would it take per 1000 lb animal to finish for three months?

Thanks
Larry
A World Away

[Gabriel]

Originally Posted by biggkidd

One other thing I'm still not sure what breed of cattle I want to have. Have sort of narrowed it down to Dexter and black angus. Seriously considering a large polled Black Dexter bull and small black angus cows. I haven't spent much time around livestock so the more friendly Dexters are appealing.

Planning to graze year round if possible so this is a weird question. How many acres of corn would it take per 1000 lb animal to finish for three months?

"Probably able to sell to individuals." Unless you've got the market, don't count on it. Really, I wouldn't recommend starting out that way. You'll feel forced to sell an animal regardless of how well it did, and if it didn't do great you'll have a customer who'll be unhappy, never buy from you again and tell all their friends... no, just start off with commodity beef and once you have a handle on production slowly ease into the niche market.

I assume you mean grazing green leaf corn. No way I or anyone else online can tell you. Depends on your soil, the variety and the exact timing of your grazing. It will probably take you several years to get your soil fertile enough to grow good corn anyway, since you said you wanted to go the natural route.

Good luck.

[G. Seddon]

Larry, please reconsider the oaks....cattle can and do die from eating acorns. Also, NRCS people have programs that will pay for automatic waterers and to fence cattle out of streams. I know it sounds nice to have access to a big free running stream, but it's an environmental thing (Chesapeake Watershed???). It might be worth checking with them to get their input on some of this.

http://www.vaswcd.org/districts-by-countycity

http://www.nrcs.usda.gov/NRCS-shutdown2013.html
(Yes, NRCS website is "down" due to federal shutdown, but when that is resolved, this group can help you. Chances are also that your extension office has info on these programs too.)

[biggkidd]

Ok I didn't make myself clear sorry. Corn fed would just be for us to try a comparison down the road. Most of the people I know want grass feed beef, health nuts. I don't really plan to finish for others a cow calf operation is the plan. Thats just another option for increased income or other sales. We wont have enough pasture to finish more than one or two a year unless we run fewer cows. The plan is to have 18-20 acres of pasture a bull and 10-12 cows, depending on how well the pasture carries the load. No plan survives contact with reality. lol The creek water will have to be pumped 500 ft minimum to the cattle, the cows can't get to the creek. I am just glad we wont have to rely on a well. The pasture is going on the far side of the property from the creek, just how the lay of the land works. I had no idea that cattle could die from acorns. I know deer love them. Which types of trees are safe? We have a good mix, red, white, pin oaks, hickory, beech, maple, poplar, pines, spruce, cedar, gum and .....

Thank you guys this is just the kinds of help I was hoping for.

Larry
A World Away

[Copperhead]

I've heard of cattle aborting from acorns due to tannic acid poisoning. I suppose they could bloat if they "OD". I lost a heifer due to apple bloat. I just took my big girls off pasture to a friend's farm to get bred. Silly girl ran to the nearest apple tree and began stuffing herself, only this time, the big bullies didn't come to run her off. . .

I am tenatively getting into the "DAngus" cattle myself. We have been AI'ing our girls. 2 are twice confirmed as pregnant. 2 have been inseminated a 2nd time (going to test next week), and the herd queen isn't cooperating . . . so I have arranged to borrow a friend's shortlegged Dexter. Oh, don't worry, the little stud muffin is capable. Half the reason I'm being allowed to borrow the cute little devil is because my friend's neighbor has lousy fences and his bull ran down the road and wouldn't come home . . . so the neighbor cut my friend's fence and allowed HER bull to roam with HIS cattle. Let me tell you, those are the chunkiest little black steers you ever saw (Happened 3 years in a row . . . part of the deal is I have to also "borrow" the bull from April to July, next year -- and help install high-tensile electric )

A smaller framed Dexter/Angus cross makes an awesome freezer beef for a family and should have a much higher meat to bone ratio than a pure Angus. Furthermore, they should fatten easily on grass and shouldn't require nearly as much pasture and hay as a full sized angus (actually, about half by my calculations) Truthfully, the future of the Angus industry is in a short, efficient, chunky steer, but the future hasn't arrived, yet. Having said that, when you take your "DAngus" to the sale, you may not receive the prime rate.

However, I 2nd the idea of planning to sell to the stockyards until you build your experience. Go ahead and plan to raise, butcher and eat one of your own steers before you market extensively to friends, family & neighbors.

Personally, I like oaks, beech, hickory, and chestnut (in that order!) My herd queen is especially good at sucking up acorns; however, she must compete with the 20+ goats as well as the pigs which does limit her intake. I do shudder to think what would happen if I closed her in a paddock with 2" of acorns on the ground . . . The extra fat does help her stay warm in the winter, but we also try to calve in late spring. (yes, I know the hickory does little for cattle: I just like squirrel hunting!)

Larry: I don't know how much exposure you've had to cattle, but if you are just entering the learning curve, I'd highly recommend some "practice" cows. Honestly, get a couple barely weaned calves, plan to feed them grain and grass and hay, halter break them, and watch them grow. Of course, now that I've said that, I'll learn I'm talking to a cattleman who's been in the industry for 20 years

Did you catch the part where I really, really like high tensile electric? Once you can keep a minimum of 6000 volts on a fence, even the goats will quit testing it . . . except for those pesky pygmies!

[biggkidd]

Originally Posted by Copperhead

Larry: I don't know how much exposure you've had to cattle, but if you are just entering the learning curve, I'd highly recommend some "practice" cows. Honestly, get a couple barely weaned calves, plan to feed them grain and grass and hay, halter break them, and watch them grow. Of course, now that I've said that, I'll learn I'm talking to a cattleman who's been in the industry for 20 years

Did you catch the part where I really, really like high tensile electric? Once you can keep a minimum of 6000 volts on a fence, even the goats will quit testing it . . . except for those pesky pygmies!

Don't worry I am new as you can get to cattle. Our first heifers will likely come from a sale barn. I will advertise on the radio here first that I'm looking for some and see if I get any bites. I have had a new friend for a few months. His granddaughter and my youngest play together. I just this week found out he use to run 100 head. He has offered his help picking animals and with advice. I plan to take him up on it.

Far as fencing goes I like the idea of electric but not sure if I want it for perimiter fence. We are off grid which means battery fence chargers, I know they are not as strong. We will be using it for the inner lanes and such and maybe everywhere. Just haven't gotten to that bridge yet. I do have a lot of cedar I could use for fence posts but want something that will last a LONG time. I hope to only build the fence once.

I'm off to work on cleaning up the pasture.

Thanks
Larry
A World Away

[Copperhead]

As far as being off-grid . . . Forerunner in the Extreme Composting thread does some amazing stuff with power inverters and battery banks.

FWIW, my Parmak 50mile charger uses about 6kw a month -- I know because I rent pasture 4 miles away and have to pay for electric service.

I know, I know . . . "heal thyself"

[joshf]

Not sure how nasty you want your fence charger to be. But I have been using one of these dc powered units from patriot for my pigs. I run it off of a car battery that is charged by a 20 watt solar panel. there is a second battery for backup nad an 8 dollar Chinese charge controller puts the power where it is needed.

I am planning to use one of the P30's for my cow pasture I am fencing right now.

http://www.patriotchargers.com/Charger%20Models.htm

[biggkidd]

Yep we've got batteries and inverters. But its several hundred feet to where the fence line will be. Plus there are times we max the 5000 w inverter. The other 1500w is for fridge and later a deep freeze.

I put that p-30 on my to buy list. Thanks

Larry
A World Away

[biggkidd]

Met with the extension agent today, she looked about 16 years old. Wonder if she has any actual knowledge or just book. She did say the soil test was about normal for this area. Also told me cedar post would out last T posts, does that sound right? Also seemed indifferent about tilling the lime in or just top dressing. She didn't know of anywhere I cold get chicken litter or manure. Seemed more interested in which grants I could get. I told her I wasn't interested in any grants that I was just looking for information on what works in this area. She was vary nice and tried hard to help with what she knew but that didn't seem like a vast knowledge. IDK

We picked about two tons of rocks up off the surface on about a 1/2 acre area this weekend. Got about 1/8 of the trash and stump pile burned. There's so much dirt mixed in that makes for slow going. I better hook up the bush hog this weekend to battle the weeds that are growing like mad. They are about waist high where I haven't started cleaning up yet. I hope that grass grows as well as the weeds do. lol Thought I would work an area (1/2 ac) at a time not sure that was a good idea now. So it goes.

I'm thinking that the lime and litter etc should be worked into the ground. Any opinions?
I have a two bottom plow and a root rake but no disk or TPH tiller. Which should I try to find / buy. I'm thinking a tiller but not sure. We also plan to get back to gardening next year. Any brands to stay away from? Or ones that are way better than others? I do know that if we go with a tiller I would rather have a gear drive unit not chain drive. I've had trouble with the chains in the past.
Thanks
Larry
A World Away

[jwal10]

A 3pt box blade (scraper) with scarifiers set as deep as possible would be tough and would stay together. And you can level with it. Tiller is trouble in stumpy ground. A 3pt S-tine cultivator used very lightly and carefully will dig loose dirt, level and pull up small brush. Plow will just trip. I would work as large a piece as you have together, not worry about stumps now. Put 1/2 the lime on, 1/2 the fertilizer this fall. Plant some clover, vetch, peas and such with the grass. Good pasture over time will sweeten the soil. Pasture does not need 7.0 PH, 6.0 will do for starters....James

[biggkidd]

Thanks James,

Box blade is what I have been working it with so far. It gets hung up quite a bit but does make some progress. My neighbor can't believe how much I have gotten done with my little tractor, he's use to BIG equipment. Next time I can get out to work on it I'll have to bush hog whats grown back. I have a root rake I want to try there. Its worked well in the past. I was trying to get more of the junk off the top first before I started breaking the ground up. I figure the more rocks and roots I can get out before breaking ground the better. The weeds are growing faster than I can work the area. We have had a few days of rain also with many more forecast. I also forgot I have a landscape rake, think I only used it once since I bought it several years ago.
I've got one more guy coming out this weekend to look at the timber. That will give me three so I guess we'll take the highest bid once they are all in. Most of the people who cut here don't want to fool with such a small tract.

Larry
A World Away

[biggkidd]

Well we had another wet weekend here. Since I can't get any actual work done I started pricing materials.. Please see if these numbers look right. I am basing this on 15 acres of pasture.

$1,000 Seed
$1,500 Lime
$1,500 ? Fertilizer/ litter/ manure
$3,000 Machine rental for stumping 1 week
$1,000 fuel
$3,000 Fencing
$2,000 water line, tank etc.
$2,000 misc expenses
------------
$15,000 Total

This is with me doing all the work. I have some friends who say they will help but until they do we wont count on that. I also think I found a place that gives lime away as a byproduct of brick making. The fertilizer is the only thing I am not fairly certain of as I haven't found a source for it yet. I would like to use chicken litter and possibly horse manure. I have told the timber people that next monday is the cut off at that point I will take the highest bid.
How long after its seeded and growing well until I can start putting animals on the pasture?

Thanks
Larry
A World Away

[ramiller5675]

I'm not sure about some of those numbers, but it sure seems high to me.

For what it's worth, I can usually build a decent barb wire fence with a hot wire for well under $1.00/foot.

I've never bought seed, fertilizer, or lime for any pasture (I tend to think that a low-input management system based on native grasses is the best for me). I have grown crabgrass, millet, and sorghum-sudangrass on cropland for both hay and grazing. The crabgrass is a volunteer stand, and the sorghum-sudangrass and millet seed cost is usually well under $15/acre. Fertilizer might be about $20/acre (a little Nitrogen if any at all).

If I was dealing with a new piece of land, I'd rather spend a little money on weed control before I spent a whole bunch of money on lime and seed. Sometimes, you would be surprised at how existing grasses respond without the weed pressure. I might plant something cheaper like sorghum-sudangrass or millet to build my soil and give me some grazing, before worrying about making it "perfect".

And, I'd also spend some money buying hay and 'bale grazing' it for a while (bale grazing can help increase your organic matter levels and also help with your fertility and pH levels)

[biggkidd]

Thank you for your reply. I'm not sure on the fertilizer cost. The seed I have priced and started buying is K31 and clover. Bail feeding may have to happen but I hope not. For this to work I need to rotational graze year round. My goal here is to pay for all this out of pocket (timber money) with no credit. Which means I have to be very careful how I spend. Fertilizer was the one thing I haven't been able to get a price on yet. I also estimated a little high on everything to make sure I covered costs. The fencing looks like will be five strand electric at this point. Please continue to point out things I missed and make suggestions.

I also found out the building where I work was put up for sale over the weekend. So I may end up without a job soon. The man I work for thinks he will close up the shop instead of moving. I really can't blame him. He actually has another job he works at and I run the shop for him. Plus hes almost 65 and about ready to retire. It puts a big damper on my plans but I have had quite a few job offers in the last year. The nice thing about where I work now is its right around the corner from my daughters schools. Since I am a single parent that is handy. No worries something usually comes up.

Larry
A World Away

[Gabriel]

Originally Posted by biggkidd

Bail feeding may have to happen but I hope not. For this to work I need to rotational graze year round.

Walk before you run. Nobody, not even an experienced grazier, will be able to feed only pasture year 'round on your place before it gets built up. Bale grazing is possibly the best way to build it up! I did it a lot last winter and oh my, what a difference. You get organic matter, NPK in the form of hay and seed for the cost of a bale. Try it, you'll be impressed.

I think you're spending too much in an attempt to get up to speed quickly. I know the stress that that can cause, because I've done it... don't want you to suffer the same fate.

[Grumpy old man]

I would concentrate on clearing/leveling the whole pasture at one time by hiring a large d9 or 10 for a day or two as the cost would be less than what you will pay over time doing it yourself and having to go back over growing sections a second or third time and you get to see major improvement in days not weeks or months .i know the satisfaction of wanting to do it all yourself and I have but the cost in time negates the benefits .I too was in a hurry and learned that lesson years ago the first thing you learn as a farmer is to be patient ,it will all work out fine in time . A good dozer driver will make short work of it if they want to ,Always pay them by the job and never hourly or you'll go broke before their done .